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#1929570 - 07/20/12 09:55 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2629
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
It would seem the software notation market has more than a few issues. One that doesn't get mentioned too often is that most users do not upgrade annually. I'm using Finale 2009 and until I feel the improvements are significant enough to warrant upgrading I won't. It feels like the software is fairly mature, but perhaps that's just a sign that a major overhaul is necessary.

If Finale were to address the issue of its defaults that would be sufficient to get me to upgrade. The labor saving potential would be significant. Instead they add nice sounds, the Garritan library is nice and a big improvement over the previous sound library, and that's why I bought 2009. It does seem to me that Finale is disengaged from their users and doesn't have a clue what we value.

Nikolas, I've thought about the crossgrade to Sibelius. The cost is just one of the issues. Finale is the Devil I know. While Sibelius isn't dead yet the current signs are not positive.

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#1929647 - 07/20/12 11:47 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4394
Loc: San Jose, CA
It's not unheard-of for a company to buy up a competitor simply to get rid of it. And if they can't get in the front door, they will come in the back door--- actually, this is just another way of saying the same thing, isn't it.

I wonder if it can be determined in whose interest it would be, to set fire to both Sibelius and Finale? It can be just a simple matter of envy.


Edited by Jeff Clef (07/20/12 11:50 AM)
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#1929751 - 07/20/12 02:54 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
One wonders if this means a door is open for others. Notion has always looked promising, especially given the fact it beat Sibelius and Finale to the iPad market:

http://www.notionmusic.com/

Or maybe MuseScore will gain ground amongst professional engravers:

http://musescore.org/

And then there's Lilypond. It already makes beautiful scores, and if someone can come up with a solid front-end, it might really catch on. There's a fair amount of interesting and work being done in this area also:

http://www.denemo.org/About

In the meanwhile, I'm happy with Sibelius and will remain a loyal user for the foreseeable future.
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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1929763 - 07/20/12 03:10 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Kreisler]
Evan R. Murphy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/01/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Austin, Texas
There's also Noteflight:

http://www.noteflight.com/

I loved their online editor when I tried it a few months ago and seriously considered switching, but I ended up sticking with Sibelius.
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#1929866 - 07/20/12 05:40 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6077
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
There are indeed many issues. Apart from not upgrading every year, free programs on the market etc. a major problem is also piracy. frown (Or has it already been mentioned?)
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#1929928 - 07/20/12 07:12 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Jeff Clef]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7427
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
It's not unheard-of for a company to buy up a competitor simply to get rid of it. And if they can't get in the front door, they will come in the back door--- actually, this is just another way of saying the same thing, isn't it.

I wonder if it can be determined in whose interest it would be, to set fire to both Sibelius and Finale? It can be just a simple matter of envy.


For anyone wanting to mull over and maybe do further research on the the MakeMusic (Finale) takeover bid and who the players are, here are links to the documentation filed with the SEC. Of course, this is just the most visible piece of the puzzle - who knows exactly what is going on, that the company would be going through CEOs so fast? It seems something must be very wrong for that to happen. At the very least, it looks the board of directors doesn't know how to do its job.

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#1930085 - 07/21/12 03:59 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
For me Finale has something wrong for plenty of years... THe yearly upgrades are pretty much worthless, like Steve says. If I hadn't switched to a win7 machine, I would have stayed with Finale 2009 myself! wink

So the whole movement of the company, is nothing like Sibelius and doesn't work like I would expect any serious company to...
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#1930098 - 07/21/12 04:46 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7427
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

(And I should confess that Finale 2009 (or 2010?) has parts of 16-bit code in it, which meant that it would NEVER see my 6 GBs or RAM and I had to manually remove the 4 in order for it to see the proper RAM and install! Funny stuff...)


I shouldn't be defending Finale, since it has caused me all sorts of frustration over the years, but I have so say that many programs and pieces of hardware run into problems as operating systems and technology evolve. When I got a new machine with 64-bit Win7, for example, I had to get a new monitor AND a new DSL modem, even though my old ones were working quite nicely with my previous computer. And several older programs were just left in the dust. Finale 2010 was one program that didn't cause any problems - even the unauthorization and reauthorization process to transfer it from the old computer worked just fine (the new machine has 8 GB of RAM).

But it still has a bunch of sucky aspects along with the good stuff. Just trying to use the documentation makes me crazy almost every time - it is like there is some kind of counter-intuitive streak of perversity running through it that's a mile wide. Not to mention a lot of flat-out errors. I am guessing, now that I know the company isn't really all that big, that they never really invested their resources in a top-notch documentation team that a program that complex needs.

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#1930154 - 07/21/12 08:49 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Evan R. Murphy]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Last I checked, Noteflight didn't have much in terms of layout - no graphics import/export, font selection, staff sizes, etc...

It's a neat tool for education, but just isn't up to the task of serious engraving.

Originally Posted By: Evan R. Murphy
There's also Noteflight:

http://www.noteflight.com/

I loved their online editor when I tried it a few months ago and seriously considered switching, but I ended up sticking with Sibelius.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1932137 - 07/25/12 04:24 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Nigel Keay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 128
Loc: Paris
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#1984831 - 11/09/12 11:27 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7427
Update - looks like the former Sibelius staff has has been hired by Steinberg.

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#1984836 - 11/09/12 11:51 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
Yes they have! And though I don't particularly care for Steinberg either (especially since they're owned by Yamaha), I can tell that this is the best possible happy ending in this saga! smile

Now Avid can go kiss their butt all they want! bouahahaha! And Steinberg pulled a very tricky move to Avid (which is NOT doing ok in any department btw)...
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#1984931 - 11/10/12 06:44 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4158
I use MuseScore. (lol)
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To each his own.

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#1985563 - 11/11/12 11:58 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Stryder87 Offline
Gold Level Forums Subscriber Until Aug 29 2013

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 88
Loc: New Westminster, BC Canada
Working in a school district means I get to try out a lot of different software, and I've tried both Sibelius and Finale. Personally, I just couldn't figure out Sibelius. The user interface just killed me. I tried Finale and ended up purchasing it (educational discount - the only reason I purchased it, otherwise it's too expensive). I do have to say I agree with their decision to stop the yearly new version cycle since there was hardly any real changes to the 'new' versions, they were mostly minor updates. The new cycle of coming out with a new version every two years should be a good thing as people will probably be more inclined to pay for actual version changes instead of minor upgrades.

That all having been said, I'd hate to see Sibelius go away. I personally don't care which program a person uses to write music with, as long as everyone has something they can use that is user friendly for them. The more products out there means more people can find what they need, what works for them, so great music can be written and shared.

Just don’t let Apple buy it!! They’ll figure out some way to make sure that everything that’s written with it will belong to them!! mad
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#1985721 - 11/12/12 01:02 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Nikolas]
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2629
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Yes they have! And though I don't particularly care for Steinberg either (especially since they're owned by Yamaha), I can tell that this is the best possible happy ending in this saga! smile

Now Avid can go kiss their butt all they want! bouahahaha! And Steinberg pulled a very tricky move to Avid (which is NOT doing ok in any department btw)...

Ownership by Yamaha doesn't seem to have hurt Bosendorfer. I'd say this is a good thing, Yamaha's deep pockets will keep Sibelius alive for the foreseeable future.

Yes, Avid has been sucking pond water since Bill Warner left. They seem to be retrenching now to focus on core competencies. The only question is will they also sell off ProTools?

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#1985855 - 11/12/12 07:07 PM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: Steve Chandler]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7427
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

Ownership by Yamaha doesn't seem to have hurt Bosendorfer. I'd say this is a good thing, Yamaha's deep pockets will keep Sibelius alive for the foreseeable future.



AFAIK, Steinberg/Yamaha didn't buy Sibelius. They just hired the former staff that had been fired by Avid. Apparently they are going develop new notation software. So the future of Sibelius itself is still pretty murky.

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#1985950 - 11/13/12 12:16 AM Re: Save Sibelius! [Re: wr]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

Ownership by Yamaha doesn't seem to have hurt Bosendorfer. I'd say this is a good thing, Yamaha's deep pockets will keep Sibelius alive for the foreseeable future.



AFAIK, Steinberg/Yamaha didn't buy Sibelius. They just hired the former staff that had been fired by Avid. Apparently they are going develop new notation software. So the future of Sibelius itself is still pretty murky.

Exactly! And that's the word out in the street.

Which is going to be difficult with all the patents going with Sibelius, Daniel and the rest of the team will need to develop new ways and new code which is going to be extra tricky... Or if they could base it off the Cubase score editor, but it sucks real time!
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