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Topic Options
#1980824 - 10/31/12 06:34 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8879
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I rather like the upright piano - it's nostalgic for me as I grew up playing an upright.

It's great for playing New Orleans style jazz, soul, and funk.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1983386 - 11/06/12 10:58 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
HELLO!
THE STRANGE NOISE reappeared IN MY CA65, is EVEN INCREASED. SO I HAVE DECIDED TO CALL SERVICE CENTER. THURSDAY will let you know IF THE PROBLEM WILL SOLVE. SERVICE CENTER THINKS THAT IS A DEFECT IN THE SPEAKERS. GOOD HOPE.
BUT I THINK IS NOT ONLY THIS, ALSO SOFTWARE PROBLEM. BYE.

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#1983436 - 11/06/12 01:20 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
StefaanBelgium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgium
Euhm, it seems to me THAT ON TOP OF THAT, YOU HAVE SOME PROBLEM WITH YOUR PC'S KEYBOARD ! smile
_________________________
Kawai CA65

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#1983449 - 11/06/12 02:09 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
WHAT ?!

( by the way, what is the consensus now; is the metallic sound part of the samples, or is it a fault on some units in the hardware - I'm a bit lost on that after all the Ca65 / ca95 posts) ?


Edited by JFP (11/06/12 02:23 PM)

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#1983820 - 11/07/12 04:08 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: JFP]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Hi!

I don't know what it really is but the bad sound is very clear with some keys. It is a kind of a metallic sound or somethig like this. It sounds very awful.
I only hoppe for some solution to this issue.
We will see.

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#1983822 - 11/07/12 04:13 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Hi!
Where did you call to? I'm in Sweden and I can't find a representative here. I bought my CA-65 from Germany.
Regards!

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#1983830 - 11/07/12 04:35 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Alejo_Sweden]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2610
Originally Posted By: Alejo_Sweden
Hi!

I don't know what it really is but the bad sound is very clear with some keys. It is a kind of a metallic sound or somethig like this. It sounds very awful.
I only hoppe for some solution to this issue.
We will see.


Yes, as it does sound "very awful" as you mention.

And, I have had the same issue with piano sounds that are not clear and very metallic or fuzzy. Read the thread, here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1983666/1.html

Not sure as of yet if this is a problem with the samples, or, speakers / soundboard / cabinet vibrations.

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#1984001 - 11/08/12 04:16 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Alejo_Sweden]
Heras Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 14
Hi Alejo,
Juhl-Sørensen has a department in Stockholm, and sell Kawai CA models. It might be worth a try to contact them?

See http://www.piano.se/digital/kawai/Kawaimodeller.htm

I bought my CA 95 from Juhl-Sørensen in Copenhagen, and they are very helpful.

I contemplated buying from Thomann, but chose Juhl-sørensen so I had support in Denmark. They had a price match guarantee, so I ended up with a relatively low price.

Regards,
Helge


Edited by Heras (11/08/12 04:16 AM)

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#1984005 - 11/08/12 04:51 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Perhaps we can do a pol among CA-65/CA95 users.

In my understanding certainly not all owners experience problems ? Would be nice to know if it are just a few exceptions - however bad that is - and not part of the design and character of the CA series itself.

It would also be fair to potential buyers if it is only affecting certain units; now it may scare people off thinking all CA's are flawed. New thread proposal: " CA-65 / CA-95 poll: My unit is perfectly fine // My unit has a strange raspy sound or hum"

And than let's see how we fare. I hope happy owners with nothing to complain will also join in, cause there's always a bias on a forum for problem reporting vs satisfactory stories.

If there's any conclusion that I can get out of all stories, it is that Kawai may (that is a big may !) have to check their audio chain design , or components - like the amplifier / power supply / shielding and perhaps adjust some parts (on some units ?). The keybed and sound engine seem fine, just what comes out through the electrical system: power unit / amp / speaker system is not always as clean as it should be. At least that is what I understand from most postings and a bit from my own experience. Correct me if I'm searching in the wrong direction.

J

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#1984016 - 11/08/12 05:46 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I don't doubt there are some odd artefacts within the samples - there always is with sampling. But I really think that is what this is all about. The numerous threads talking about what I would call characteristics (of Kawai DPs) rather than faults is getting a bit boring to be honest. For the record I have the MP10 and leaving aside personal preferences about pianos and the way they should and can sound, all is fine.

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1984024 - 11/08/12 06:41 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8879
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Steve, I'm inclined to agree with you.

As I believe I've mentioned in the past, the 'Concert Grand' sound used in all current (and previous) generation Kawai DPs is based on audio captured from the same Kawai EX Concert Grand recording session. Of course, more expensive models allow greater expression with longer, more detailed samples, however the core sound and tonal character is the same.

Therefore, I do not believe there are any problems with 'rasping' or 'metallic' artefacts in the sound. If was the case, we would have seen many complaints in the past from previous generation CN, CA, CS, CL, ES customers.

More likely, I get the impression that certain individuals are drawing attention to the slightest oddity or characteristic simply because they know that Kawai has a strong representation on this forum. It's seemingly far easier to go online and start a new forum thread about some minor grievance, than pick up the phone and call the dealer.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1984025 - 11/08/12 06:42 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8879
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Steve, I'm inclined to agree with you.

As I believe I've mentioned in the past, the 'Concert Grand' sound used in all current (and previous) generation Kawai DPs is based on audio captured from the same Kawai EX Concert Grand recording session. Of course, more expensive models allow greater expression with longer, more detailed samples, however the core sound and tonal character is the same.

Therefore, I do not believe there are any problems with 'rasping' or 'metallic' artefacts in the sound. If was the case, we would have seen many complaints in the past from previous generation CN, CA, CS, CL, ES customers.

More likely, I get the impression that certain individuals are drawing attention to the slightest oddity or characteristic simply because they know that Kawai has a strong representation on this forum. It's seemingly far easier to go online and start a new forum thread about some minor grievance, than pick up the phone and call the dealer.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1984037 - 11/08/12 07:50 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi James,

I basically agree. Unless people refer to a speaker or cabinet making a strange sound or hum (not the sound engine itself).

That is easy to check by using headphones. If the sound is still there it's most probably the character of the preset. If not , it could indicate an acoustical resonance (try moving the DP), or something else (broken speaker , loose wire, whatever).

By comparing experiences in a forum people can find out if things are 'normal' (same for all owners) and live with it, or indeed an abnormality in their unit. You could also call your dealer immediately, but for some:

1) the dealer is a web retailer, so no real useful service to expect when trying to check / explain certain behavior. Sending it back , when your not even sure there's something wrong is also not a great solution.
2) the dealer is many many miles away - may even be another country.
3) you don't want to bother your dealer right from the start, but first find out if others have the same experience and see what they think of it , or have found out. If necessary , you'll get your dealer involved.

So , yes - some of te whining may be over-sensitive owners who just cannot come to terms with their purchase. But others are genuinely discussing their findings and thoughts with respect to the product. As in all forums the negatives over shadow the positives, cause people are more inclined to post about something they don't like, than something they have nothing to complain about. That's just the way it works. Thats also why I'm curious about owners who are totally happy with their instrument. Let them be heard ;-) Puts things more in perspective. So no poll. But positive CA reviews please !

Just my thoughts, J



Edited by JFP (11/08/12 07:51 AM)

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#1984038 - 11/08/12 07:53 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: JFP]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8879
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: JFP
I basically agree.


Terrific!

[high five]
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1984088 - 11/08/12 10:00 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
StefaanBelgium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgium
I'm a very happy owner of the CA65 and I'm all for the proposed approach that everyone gives somes feedback, not only the negative.
_________________________
Kawai CA65

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#1984179 - 11/08/12 01:39 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: JFP]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi,

As I can recall, even the most squeamish CA65/95 owners concluded their critical posts stating that the CAxx is a great instrument. I have got even in PMs the same positive feedbacks with recommendation to buy.

It is no bashing when some experienced people are referring to or demonstrating some real issues (a la DPBSD) helping to support objective quality measures and criteria. (If a feature is possible with SW-Pianos for 150$, it is a legitimate expectation for a higher end product for 3000$.) Such reported issues should be picked up and processed by the manufacturers eagerly as a valuable feedback. If possible, they should answer them accordingly quickly and transparent (with information whether they see a SW update as a possible solution, with timing information, or at least whether they consider it a design issue, a single case or a no-issue).

Even big SW manufacturers like Microsoft have a ticket system where you can track reported issues.

Buying a DP is similar as becoming a SW-user: You should plan ackquisition and ownership of a DP ideally for a limited life-span only, calculate with amortisation, need for update. Just as with cars. You do not buy a perfect art object but a tool built on a continuously developing technology. It should best fit for your momentarily needs and preferences and means for a given time - no more. Your decision involves finding your right trade-offs.

I see, we have also responsibility: writing reports, opinions is easy an can make unnecessary and unwanted harm to important manufacturers - we all should consider this very carefully while writing about negative aspects.

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#1984208 - 11/08/12 02:33 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Speaking of the DPBSD thread, I notice that no one has yet submitted a DPBSD file to dewster from one of these new Kawai's. Someone should do that, so we can talk about the sounds in a little more quantitative way.

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#1984240 - 11/08/12 04:05 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Not entirely true, but there was a flooding, power failure and plenty of work to do (as I understood), so be a bit more patient...it'll come eventually.

@James , yes high five, shoot me ! Positive feedback is coming in - brace yourself ;-)

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#1984260 - 11/08/12 04:49 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Kawai James]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 218
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
More likely, I get the impression that certain individuals are drawing attention to the slightest oddity or characteristic simply because they know that Kawai has a strong representation on this forum. It's seemingly far easier to go online and start a new forum thread about some minor grievance, than pick up the phone and call the dealer.


James

When I posted of the single note being different, it was not to draw attention from Kawai's excellent representation, nor excellent service.

Just simply to see if anyone else had it, and maybe had the fix.

I really believe it is some small item that is loose inside and resonates with only that one note. Adjust or tighten, and all is well.

If this continues, and others that play piano and have better hearing than I do, I may call the dealer to arrange for a service call.

As Always - Thanks for all the attention you offer on this Forum.


_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#1984607 - 11/09/12 11:48 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Heras]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Hi Helge!
Thanks a lot for your tips. I will try to take contact with them.
Tack och vi hörs!

Alejo

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#1984629 - 11/09/12 12:49 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Hi Everybody,

I want clarify some ideas about this topic because some people here want that all opinions will be like a kind of “New age” comments with peace and love feeling.
I’m engineer at a big company here in Sweden and we are many engineers working in soft- and hardware. When a customer has a complaint or something goes wrong we try to solve it. It’s not enough to explain to the customers about all efforts from our engineers and how much job they dedicated: They bought a product with quality and they demand a solution for the issues that they are suffering.
When Toyota finds a defect in their cars, they recall a lot of cars: millions of units in the whole world. Instead to explain in a forum or mass media about the efforts and very hard work from their engineers, they act. They work to find a solution to the issues and apply it.
A customer buy a product expecting a certain quality according to the price that he/she is paying for. As engineer I experience this situation very often.
Nowadays, ”after sales management” is as important as “introducing sales management” and companies that don’t understand that don’t have a long future.
And Toyota is only one example. Many DP manufactures act pro-active to keep a good quality and image and others only try to find excuses invoking feelings about the respect for them that works very hard to produce a good product. But what about the respect to the customer that bought a product with some issues? If one demands respect, needs to give respect reciprocally.
Of course, I can talk in a “new age way” and describe only positive characteristics but it would be like cover my eyes to don’t see the reality.
I'm very happy with my CA-65 but I need to say at the same time that some notes in “Grand piano” sound very bad and this is a fact. I hear it and many others too. Everything else is like to not want to see the reality.

This is not an absolute truth only my humble opinion.

Cordially,

Alejo


Edited by Alejo_Sweden (11/09/12 12:59 PM)

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#1984714 - 11/09/12 05:10 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Alejo_Sweden]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2610
Originally Posted By: Alejo_Sweden
But what about the respect to the customer that bought a product with some issues?

I'm very happy with my CA-65 but I need to say at the same time that some notes in “Grand piano” sound very bad and this is a fact. I hear it and many others too. Everything else is like to not want to see the reality.


Yes, do agree with what you have said as the CA95 has similar problems.

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#1984756 - 11/09/12 07:23 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8879
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Alejo_Sweden, may I ask if you have reported the issue you are experiencing to your Kawai dealer?

This should really be the first point of contact.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1984978 - 11/10/12 09:45 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Justplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 236
Nicely put Alejo! I truly think there is a problem with some of the CA65's and CA95's only because my CA95 has NO ISSUES! I am very, very picky about sound and I can't find anything "Wrong" with my CA95. I think the treble is a bit bright, but I can adjust that, however, it's hasn't bothered me enough to do so. I played the older CA93's and the new CA95 doesn't even compare. I have to wonder if it is the product or perhaps the acoustics in the room. My CA95 sounds so nice, I actually prefer it to my Grand and I can't say why, except I love it at so many levels...

I have heard metallic sounds on the Yamaha's and Roland pianos, but I can't find a fault with my CA95.

If there is a problem with the unit, then I agree that Kawai should recall the product, but what if it's not and a problem with the consumer's acoustics or a headphone issue? I'm not saying it is, but it would be surely costly to recall the product if there's not a problem. Not everyone is having these issues and I'm very happy that I'm not, but I think Kawai should get to the bottom of these issues.

Good luck!

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#1985009 - 11/10/12 11:05 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Justplay]
abadaba Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/20/12
Posts: 5
I got my CA65 a week ago. I am very happy with the piano and really can't find anything wrong with it. I am really glad i ordered it before I read some of the last comments about the "bad" sound, since I would probably not risk to order one if I had read them. I bought my piano without testing it (only tested the ca63).

One thing I had to adjust is the Virtual Tech settings for "Key-off effect" and "Fall-back noise". I think these effects are too loud using the default settings, and turned them down to level 1. Maybe less "realistic" that way, but certainly sounds better.

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#1985236 - 11/11/12 04:24 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: JFP]
DrAlan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/04/10
Posts: 18
Loc: Portsmouth UK
Originally Posted By: JFP
Hi James,
3) you don't want to bother your dealer right from the start, but first find out if others have the same experience and see what they think of it , or have found out. If necessary , you'll get your dealer involved.


I'd just like to say JFP that you've got this spot on, at least in my case. I'm starting to feel a bit guilty that my only comments on this fabulous product have been related to a query about something that troubles me! There are many things about the CA65 that I love; this is why I bought it. To list a few just for balance:

0) The feel of the full length keys

1) Three sensors enabling repeat playing of a note without letting the damper fall back

2) Damper and String resonance (probably appeals to my engineer's mind more than my musician's brain!)

3) User-settable hammer delay which models the slow movement of the hammer when playing pianissimo. This, combined, with the grand feel action, really can make this feel like an acoustic piano.

4) User-settable sustain and una corda pedal response

5) Great piano sounds and variable acoustic for each one

I have *lots* of questions I'd like to ask though, most out of sheer curiosity. If I ask them in another thread, I might link to this reply (if I can!) to place them in their proper context.

Cheers

Alan

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#1985290 - 11/11/12 09:35 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Hi everybody!

I have now tested my CA-65 using the Art Vista Grand Piano without any issues. I tested this with internal and external speakers and with my headphones: PERFECT!
So now I know more about this issue and what I need to do to solve it.
My meaning writing this wasn’t to raise a controversy about Kawai as company, only to solve an issue with my CA-65. Talking with my dealer it has given me more problems than solutions. Now I found one with Art Vista.
For my part this case is closed but I got at the same time a good learned lesson for the future.
Thanks to everybody that tried to help me with this issue.

Cordially,

Alejo

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#1985342 - 11/11/12 12:00 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
hallo!
i have reported the issue i'm experiencing to my Kawai dealer.
the technician came and he was very puzzled.
he has decided that to need change the "motherboard" (if i have good understood). he said thet it's not a issue in ampifier. I hope that the problem can be solved because, you have to believe me, in high-volume, unfortunately, my piano ca65 can not be plaied.
I am very sad.

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#1985358 - 11/11/12 01:07 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
abadaba Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/20/12
Posts: 5
Don't think you need to be very sad... If the technician acknowledged that he needs to change the motherboard, and that doesn't do the trick you will most certainly get a new one under the guarantee.

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#2095020 - 06/04/13 02:10 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Kawai James]
Piano Rookie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 4
To you all: Fist of all thank you for discussing these things in such detail! I have started playing piano a few months ago on a rented CL 36, not knowing whether I'd stick to it or not.
Well, I WILL stick to it for sure. And having decided to actually buy a digital piano I went to the dealer and tried out quite a few.

What it boiled down to was the CA-65 and the new CA-15. For my personal taste the two Kawais are the ones that suit me most, in particular the keyboards.

What I did notice though was a difference in certain sounds. The two instruments were facing each other, such that I could hit the notes simultaneously or immediately one after the other. It became clear, not only to me but also the dealer and a few other people around, that the sounds were different. Most prominently we noticed this with the octave beginning with the middle C.

While another customer found the CA-65 nicer, I found the sound of the CA-15 nicer - a matter of taste. However, the CA-65 to me has a much more comfortable keyboard, in particular playing between the keys. The dealer was a bit surprised that the sound was different, as he expected all Kawai sounds to be generally the same, the newer ones being of course more detailed and realistic. He supposed that it may be due to a difference in sound generation and will check with Kawai if such difference is known.

While waiting for his answer I found this thread.

My questions are:

i) has maybe anybody tried such a direct comparison, too, and if yes, did you notice a difference?

ii) has anybody found certain settings within the virtual technician which brings the CA-65 closer to the CA-15 that we could try out? (unlikely, I believe, but just asking)

iii) has there may been any news with respect to the original subject of the thread, since the description of the sound characteristic seems similar to what my personal hearing noticed.

Maybe someone happens to have some info on these things, that would be great.

If it wasn't for the difference in sound I'd go for the CA-65 straight away because of the keyboard. At the moment I favour the CA-15, which also has a great keyboard I must say, but the difference to the CA-65 to me is noticeable and I'm afraid that some regret will persist if I buy the CA-15.

Cheers

Piano Rookie

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