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#1985615 - 11/12/12 05:32 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: pv88]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Originally Posted By: pv88
@Grosskate,

I have played quite a few digital pianos and this is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention the "let-off" (or, escapement simulation feature) offering too much resistance to the fingers in "pp" playing.

I have a Kawai CA95 and its let-off is apparently very subtle so that you hardly notice it, most of the time. I have not seen where it does not allow me to play as softly as I would like, without any notes not sounding.

Have you been able to try out more than one ES7 just to see if another one does the same thing?

If it does continue to present an issue for you, then go with your next best choice...


No unfortunately only 1 model was displayed in the shop, and i couldn't try it anywhere else.

So again, mainly it was the control over the notes played in pp that was wrong for me. Some notes were pressed but not played at all. I struggled to find the appropriate pressure and force to add when pressing a key in order to play the notes as gently as possible. and it felt like the first part of the pressure to the let off point was ok, but then harder (too hard??) to press down and play the note. So mechanically when playing a classical piece, i ended up with some notes not played at all. Maybe it's just a matter of time before adapting to it. But i felt better on the MP6 or the MP10 playing the same different classical pieces.

Sorry I cannot describe it differently maybe it depends on the person that is playing it as a matter of "feeling".

But yes I'll probably go with the MP6 in the end, the mp10 being too massive and too expensive for me.

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#1985622 - 11/12/12 06:37 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2610
@Grosskate,

Sure wish I could try out the same ES7 you had played on, as that is certainly a first for me in hearing your predicament with the let-off. I can see why some of your notes didn't "sound" when playing as softly/slowly as possible since no Kawai currently has the ability to sound a note from the let-off point.

Perhaps there are others who will test the ES7 and can make their observations on the let-off resistance. Not many digitals have this ability to "sound" a note from the let-off point, only.

You would think that Kawai would incorporate the "playing off/from the jack" feature into their digitals, as more customers are becoming aware of the apparent shortcoming.

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#1985646 - 11/12/12 08:22 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Well I don't know if it's only from the let off point , but I just couldn't control whether the note would pressed completely AND sound, OR NOT when playing gently.

i don't know what else I could say.

It also feels like overall the travel of the key is shorter than on the other DP. I measured, and it seems to be indeed the same distance that the key travel down, but when playing I also have this feeling.

Maybe i don't explain myself clearly enough. Sorry English is not my mother tongue :-p



I don't think that I can easily find another shop where to try this ES7 model.

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#1985648 - 11/12/12 08:33 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2610
Originally Posted By: Grosskate
So again, mainly it was the control over the notes played in pp that was wrong for me. Some notes were pressed but not played at all. I struggled to find the appropriate pressure and force to add when pressing a key in order to play the notes as gently as possible. and it felt like the first part of the pressure to the let off point was ok, but then harder (too hard??) to press down and play the note. So mechanically when playing a classical piece, i ended up with some notes not played at all.


@Grosskate,

You have explained your situation with the ES7 quite well, and, here is a summary of the current issues:

1) No current Kawai digital is capable of "playing off/from the jack" as you should be able to do, just like an acoustic grand piano.

2) It is possible to play softly enough without a note sounding, which may be related to the let-off being too firm, or, stiff.

Perhaps Kawai can update all of their pianos with the correct simulation?

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#1985750 - 11/12/12 03:15 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
My MP6 had let-off. No problems there. My ES7 has let-off, but since it should be the same action as the MP6, save for the 3rd sensor, I doubt if the let-off has anything to do with the difference in feeling. The RH and RH II do indeed respond in a different way - and they should , why else bother to bring out a new version. But I second the opinion that the ES requires some more work to get used to than the MP , that I felt comfortable with from day 1. I think in the end I wouldn't go back to the repetition characteristics of the RH , but there were some things I did like about the original RH that I am still trying to match with the RH II. Perhaps some delicate tweaking in touch/ dynamic response, especially for soft playing in a firmware update or user setting will do the trick. Maybe in the end , after some tweaking , there's more to like about the RH II after all, but its still a work in progress. Sorry, no simple one way advice about RH vs RH II. Though 99% the same on paper, they are too different in reality and therefore become a matter of taste and personal preference. Neither is bad. P.s. also keep in mind I can only judge my own units and experience may vary from one unit to another as James indicated.

Edit: just played it for a while again and think the responsiveness of the RH II makes up for the better (more smooth) dynamic control of the RH in the soft range. Rather have it both , but if I must choose , I would go for the RH II. Just my thoughts...


Edited by JFP (11/12/12 05:42 PM)

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#1985856 - 11/12/12 07:07 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2610
To all:

I now have an answer from Kawai regarding the let-off simulation, here:

Kawai's "Let-off" question - answer received

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#1987309 - 11/16/12 02:33 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Hello

Thanks that is good to know and it's explained really well ! I think in the end that I'm going to order an MP6 soon

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#2009626 - 01/05/13 06:45 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
cotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 21
I have not tried any of the Kawai, (will do this week) but I did play the FP4F a lot. Both of them are light years away from my current DP (Korg 170s) So I'm sure any of them will be a huge improvement for me.

The FP4F seems to go almost ignored on the forums and gets bad reviews due to the sluggish and "slow key response" feeling and it is always suggested to go directly to the FP7F which seem to be way better. But that one is in a higher price range.

The FP4F goes almost unnamed on this thread too, yet it's "Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F" What's your opinion on the FP4F? How would you compare its action against the MP6 (again, I feel the MP10 is in higher price range).

I believe this thread should be more like "Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F" and "Kawai MP10 vs Roland FP7F" I would not compare the 4 all together.

Cheers.
_________________________
English is not my first language, please be patient!.

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#2009725 - 01/05/13 09:23 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3153

MP6 = $1500
FP4F= $1700
FP7F = $2000
MP10 = $2500

The relatively small difference in price between the FP4F and the FP7F for a much better action is why few people are very interested in the FP4F unless they really need its better portability. (And it's still not super light.)

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#2009735 - 01/05/13 10:08 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
thomwalao Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 6
I just tried out the Kawai ES7 just today and was surprised that the action
_________________________
Wallace Thompson

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#2009977 - 01/06/13 12:41 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: thomwalao]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: thomwalao
I just tried out the Kawai ES7 just today and was surprised that the action


Don't leave us hanging. What was it that surprised you about the action?

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#2010059 - 01/06/13 02:40 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
For the first time ever, surprisingly, I had the FP-7F and MP6 set up next to each other the past couple of days; up to now they've always resided in different parts of the house. I had the chance to assess whether my perception of them independently stood up when they could be A/B'd directly. What I found pretty much confirmed my previous assessment.

I ran them both through the FP-7F's internal speakers, so there was no possible bias. The MP's AP samples are noticeably clearer and more "piano-like" than the Roland's; they are also harsher in the higher registers. However, at low velocities, the MP6 was much more difficult to control, and so pianissimo passages were more hit-and-miss, with less mellowing of timbre. However, the Kawai's action, in isolation, felt somewhat more positive (I hate to say more like a real piano, although I think that's what I mean) than the Roland's.

More interesting was the psychological reaction. I had decided to put them both up for sale since I'm trying to make do with fewer boards, and also have a Krome 88 on order for gigging with the band (primarily because it has good samples in a lightweight form). Up to that point I couldn't decide which DP to keep. A prospective purchaser came to choose between the two pianos, and I found that, despite the Kawai's far better EPs and effects, better interface, more "realistic" attack sound, etc., I found myself hoping the guy would buy the Kawai (he did). In the end, I found that, for me, the Roland action/sound connection, and the non-looped, non-static decay trumped everything else - it just feels great to play, and so I think I play better as a result. I also felt no seller's remorse (apart from the monetary loss) after parting with an instrument I have enjoyed playing with my band.

The FP-7F is a far from perfect board, but I do hope that other manufacturers will recognize that what Roland got right with their SuperNATURAL/PHAIII are the areas that they really do need to address. Hopefully, NAMM will bring some fresh approaches. The playability - call it a holistic approach to design, if you will - pays huge dividends for the pianist, IMO, even if the individual parts are less than perfect. This feeds into the discussion about keyboard action and perception: here. I think it is pointless to decide on action or sound in isolation, as it is the whole that separates a sound-producing keyboard from an instrument.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#2010110 - 01/06/13 04:07 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: voxpops]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 451
Loc: Europe
When comparing key actions of DPs while still having them switched off, I found my personal ranking. When afterwards switching the DPs on and repeating my DP tests under influence of sound characterisitcs (dynamics in volume and timbre) and speaker system quality, I found a different ranking for the full instruments.
_________________________
learning Piano on my Roland HP-505
before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#2014242 - 01/14/13 05:40 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Finally got my MP6 for about 2 weeks now !

I'm more than happy with it. The touch is super nice the sounds is good. Although now that I'm more used to listening to it, I can say that the sustain is not it's strong point. The decay of the note is too fast if I compare it to an acoustic piano.

Otherwise it's a great board, and I'm happy with my purchase.

I wanted to thank you all for your help an advice !

If you have other question feel free to ask me =)

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#2014249 - 01/14/13 06:15 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 451
Loc: Europe
Congratulations! Enjoy!

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#2014251 - 01/14/13 06:19 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8866
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Congrats Grosskate!

Regarding the sustain, it's possible to adjust this by using the 'Decay' tone modify control, as explained on page 31 of the owner's manual.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2014256 - 01/14/13 06:34 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
OK good I 'll have a look . I admit that I just turn it on and play... I didn't tweak much at the moment, and probably won't be tweaking much =)

but very very cool keyboard indeed !!

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#2014321 - 01/14/13 10:09 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Kawai James]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Regarding the sustain, it's possible to adjust this by using the 'Decay' tone modify control, as explained on page 31 of the owner's manual.

My experience was that a little goes a long way. Even +1 on the decay makes a noticeable difference. Beyond + 2, the sound begins to morph into more of a synth-like decay. But if you just add a little, and perhaps EQ out some of the highs, you can get a piano more suited to legato playing. I also found EQ adjustments more effective at getting a slightly mellower tone without losing the sparkle of the sound, whereas the preset "mellow" variations seemed to dull the sound more.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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