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#1984913 - 11/10/12 05:30 AM When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer...
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4825
Loc: USA
...recordings or scores? (assuming you had to pick between the two)

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#1984919 - 11/10/12 05:53 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
mrenaud Online   content
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Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Switzerland
Scores, always. Recordings are nice to have, but if I'm supposed to say anything about the composition itself (rather than its performance), then I vastly prefer scores.
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#1984922 - 11/10/12 06:07 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: mrenaud]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
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Loc: USA
Do you think that is the view of most people who surf this forum?

(and nice signature smile )

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#1984956 - 11/10/12 08:58 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
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Loc: London UK
Scores. For a start, it weeds out the compositions from the improvisations.

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#1984979 - 11/10/12 09:48 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Exalted Wombat]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Scores. For a start, it weeds out the compositions from the improvisations.
Wait... what's wrong with an impro then?

Anyhow, the formal reply for me would be both: If you have a composition that's for more than 1 instrument (piano) then any pianist would have a bit of trouble thinking of what's going on in there. This is a job for other composers, and not many I know can use their inner ear that well anyways... So a recording IS curcial.

Same goes for scores... A score will give a much better understanding of what's going on. And it's really helpful to see what's going on in a very slow and analytical manner, rather than taking a mental 'photograph' of what you're listening to, in order to offer some feedback later on.

___________________________

One should also be aware of the situation each composer is in: One may want to offer the score, because the recording is for sale. Another may want to release the recording, because the score is for sale. Etc...

There is no clear answer, I'm afraid.
_________________________
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#1984987 - 11/10/12 10:00 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Nikolas]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
]Wait... what's wrong with an impro then?


Nothing at all. But it's rarely a composition untill the ideas in it are pinned down and given structure.

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#1984994 - 11/10/12 10:36 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Exalted Wombat]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4825
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
]Wait... what's wrong with an impro then?


Nothing at all. But it's rarely a composition untill the ideas in it are pinned down and given structure.


What I meant was, "a score vs. a recording of what's written on the score"

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#1985127 - 11/10/12 06:42 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Tim Adrianson Online   content
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Registered: 08/07/10
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I personally would go with the scores. I'm very much a "reader", and always really appreciate following the scores as the music is being played.

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#1985216 - 11/11/12 02:19 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
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I don't mind a recording, but definitely want to see the score.

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#1985230 - 11/11/12 03:56 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Most definitely scores.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1985243 - 11/11/12 05:38 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Exalted Wombat Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
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Loc: London UK
Apart from anything else, it's difficult to comment on a recording other that "I enjoyed that! Well done!" (which, I suppose, is all that many people submitting recorded improvisations want to hear anyway:-)

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#1985337 - 11/11/12 11:49 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Steve Chandler Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2758
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
In my view a recording is what an audience will hear, so in terms of evaluating a piece for dramatic impact and to a degree harmonic sophistication I don't need a score. While analysis is useful to see what's going on I don't think it matters in how successful a piece is, because the audience very seldom has access to a score. A piece of music will succeed or fail based on its audience perception and that typically means sans score.

To get to Wombat's comment, if you didn't enjoy it, it doesn't matter what's in the score. As far as improvisations are concerned it's pretty easy to tell when a piece is improvised as there's usually a repeating chord progression involved. For me through composed music will always be much denser regarding content.

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#1985970 - 11/13/12 02:09 AM When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Nikolas]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
Scores. For a start, it weeds out the compositions from the improvisations.


Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Wait... what's wrong with an impro then?
. . . If you have a composition that's for more than 1 instrument (piano) then any pianist would have a bit of trouble thinking of what's going on in there. This is a job for other composers, and not many I know can use their inner ear that well anyways... So a recording IS curcial.

I have been pondering this interchange all weekend. Like Mr. Exalted, in my mind there is a clear distinction between a Composition and an Improvisation.

The former is music that is somewhat “formalized”, in that it is finished, complete unto itself, and repeatable by someone other than the originator. Typically, a composition is committed to paper, and that is the primary way it is transferred from composer to performer.

An improvisation, as its name implies, is ad-hoc, extemporaneous, and would seldom, if ever, be repeated note-for-note. (An exception to this might be the transcription of a jazz solo, where the student is attempting to analyze for learning.) The improvisation carries the connotation of being in the moment, and not lasting beyond the “now”.

As for Composers: I believe that REAL Composers, of which there are several on this Forum, need an exceptional command of the musical language, and its tools. I think of Composition as a craft, with all the implied rigor and study and experience that culminates in the mastery of anything. Like a conductor, the composer is an exceptional musician with a bird’s-eye-view of music. With that in mind, I find it difficult to picture a real Composer who cannot look at a relatively tonal score, and immediately “hear” the music. If that ability has not yet been cultivated, then we probably do not yet have a real composer.

Just LoPresti’s opinion, naturally. So, if I have to pick one, I’ll take the score any day.
Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1986007 - 11/13/12 05:09 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
OT: Joe, is that your picture as your avatar or one of the singers from One Direction (not proud I just made that reference, ha)

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#1986011 - 11/13/12 05:27 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: London UK
Yes. Despite anecdotes of a few genius composers who could extemporise a fully-structured piece of music, most of us need to work a little harder to produce something worthy of consideration!

Not that a recording isn't also useful for comment and criticism. The (relative) layman's opinion is also valuable.

But heck, who am I to tell a composer how to compose! If the result's good, who cares about the medium? :-)

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#1986028 - 11/13/12 07:14 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Bobpickle]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4825
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
OT: Joe, is that your picture as your avatar or one of the singers from One Direction (not proud I just made that reference, ha)


Yes, that's me. One direction can go pound sand.

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#1986589 - 11/14/12 10:45 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
EO3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 142
Recordings !

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#1986949 - 11/15/12 03:43 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6109
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Scores.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1988350 - 11/19/12 01:13 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1514
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Sound is all that matters to me. Whether a piece possesses an approximate visual equivalent, i.e. score, whether it was created slowly over a long time, worked out at an instrument or not, or recorded on the spot using improvisation, or even produced by a computer program doesn't matter. Any other answer would render me inconsistent. So a recording for me.
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"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#1989983 - 11/23/12 05:15 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1035
Loc: west coast island, canada
I think the basis of music creation and appreciation is that it is audible, in all musical genres.

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#1989984 - 11/23/12 05:23 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Sound matters to me too, of course, but I can hear it when I look at the score, unless it's devilishly complicated.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1989990 - 11/23/12 06:08 AM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: currawong]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1035
Loc: west coast island, canada
Currawong,
I think that is quite an amazing learned skill which perhaps some others reading here also share. Probably a very tiny, tiny percentage of people that listen to music possess this ability.

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#1990109 - 11/23/12 05:10 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Dara]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Dara
Currawong,
I think that is quite an amazing learned skill which perhaps some others reading here also share. Probably a very tiny, tiny percentage of people that listen to music possess this ability.
Not surprising that most listeners haven't developed the skill. It takes time, and you need to engage with the notation in order to learn how to see what you hear, and hear what you see. More than a few pianists, I've noticed, don't so much read music as decode it - once you've worked out what the notes of a piece are, you memorise it and never look at the score again. And for some purposes that's fine. I've had people say to me "you're lucky you can read music." Well I am, and I appreciate what led me to become a musician. But Luck didn't actually teach me to read music. smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1990826 - 11/25/12 09:06 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
pianojohnw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 126
Loc: UK
Recording
_________________________
I am a self taught piano player who has been playing the piano for 4 years, I love piano and love composing new music :-D

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#1996454 - 12/08/12 03:05 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: LoPresti]
Foxes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 36
Originally Posted By: LoPresti


As for Composers: I believe that REAL Composers, of which there are several on this Forum...


Quote:
I find it difficult to picture a real Composer who...


Quote:
we probably do not yet have a real composer.


I know this will sound harsh, *deleted by moderator*

You can think whatever you want, however harshly you think it, but posting a repeat of the language I've deleted will get you a vacation from posting.


Edited by BB Player (12/09/12 08:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Profanity

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#1996506 - 12/08/12 05:11 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Foxes]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Foxes
Originally Posted By: LoPresti


As for Composers: I believe that REAL Composers, of which there are several on this Forum...


Quote:
I find it difficult to picture a real Composer who...


Quote:
we probably do not yet have a real composer.


I know this will sound harsh, BBPlayer got there first!
I'm not a mod here or anything, but I strongly feel that such language and such attitude is nothing but worryingly awful.

There's no need for that over here. If you don't agree with Ed, by all means say so and explain why, as I've done in the past and keep doing it. If you want to harass, attack and swear there's plenty of other places to do it, but not here... frown

EDIT: I've just noticed that BBplayer edited foxes post in which case I'll edit his quote in mine so that it won't show anymore...


Edited by Nikolas (12/10/12 04:36 PM)
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#1996581 - 12/08/12 08:22 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Sean Montgomery Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Monmouthshire, UK
Much has been said already! Nikolas is right - it depends on the situation. Sometimes it is nice to follow the score while listening to the recording but equally, it is nice to switch off and concentrate on what you are hearing. I suppose it depends on what you you hope to gain from the experience. If you simply want to hear the music - you dont need a score. Those that say they need to see the score so that they can 'hear' it could just listen to the recording (assuming one is available). However, if you wanted to see how easy it is to play, then you would definately need the score.

Also, if you had to perfom a piece and wanted an indication of tempi etc. then you might need both. Some friends who are asked to perform a piece, will look at the score but wont listen to another persons interpretation in case it informs theirs. Others will devour as many recordings as possible while following the score in order to see how others do it.......
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www.seanmontgomerymusic.com

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#1997429 - 12/10/12 04:15 PM When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Foxes]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Foxes,
Why don't you send me a private message with your address, so I can pay you a little visit?

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1997441 - 12/10/12 04:36 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Ed,

Just let it be... It's not worth it!

And I can't believe that I'm saying this myself, the hot headed greek guy! :S
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1997449 - 12/10/12 04:56 PM Re: When you browse the Composer's Lounge, do you prefer... [Re: Nikolas]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Ed,

Just let it be... It's not worth it!

And I can't believe that I'm saying this myself, the hot headed greek guy!

We Siciliani, just like you Greeks, like meeting other musicians face-to-face. It promotes understanding.
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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