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#1986218 - 11/13/12 03:00 PM Mikuli edition wrong?
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
At 3:30, Yundi plays an F-sharp. He plays it at both repetitions too. Do you know what edition he's using? My Mikuli edition doesn't have that F-sharp. Which version is "official"? The F-sharp sounds better imo.


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#1986245 - 11/13/12 03:58 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
There is no single correct edition for Chopin. Most of his works have many variants, which derive from several different editions published during his lifetime (often with his personal input) and the autograph score, where it exists. Both with the F# and without are valid interpretations. I'm learning the 4th ballade at the moment and there's all sorts of areas like this.

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#1986249 - 11/13/12 04:00 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: debrucey]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I'm learning the 4th ballade at the moment and there's all sorts of areas like this.


Does it annoy you? Lol.

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#1986252 - 11/13/12 04:04 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Nope, it interests me. Obviously I have some strong opinions about which variants I prefer and why, but I think it's useful to be occasionally reminded that there isn't and can never be a single, truly definitive version of a piece of music.

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#1986265 - 11/13/12 04:41 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I always check CFEO when I am in doubt.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1986312 - 11/13/12 07:09 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
First editions are not necessarily the most 'authentic'. They often contain engraving errors that are corrected in later editions, and Chopin himself is known to have been involved in the process of making subsequent editions of lots of pieces. The Ballade, for example, has three 'first' editions, French, German and English, and there are lots of differences between them.


Edited by debrucey (11/13/12 07:14 PM)

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#1986323 - 11/13/12 07:34 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
BDB Online   content
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Most questions have more than a single answer.
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#1986372 - 11/13/12 10:23 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
At 3:30, Yundi plays an F-sharp.

As opposed to what?

What he's playing there is the only version I've ever known, and the only version I've ever heard, in all the billions of times I've heard the piece. smile

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#1986374 - 11/13/12 10:28 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I think he means as opposed to the Mikuli edition. I have also always heard F# though.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1986381 - 11/13/12 10:43 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: ChopinAddict]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
I think he means as opposed to the Mikuli edition. I have also always heard F# though.

What in the world is in the Mikuli edition instead??

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#1986382 - 11/13/12 10:45 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8889
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
I think he means as opposed to the Mikuli edition. I have also always heard F# though.

What in the world is in the Mikuli edition instead??

laugh , I was going to ask that too!

BTW, not very happy with what's going on beginning at 6:39. Terribly rushed and smudged.
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#1986383 - 11/13/12 10:49 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
We will have to wait until MJ comes back and tells us. smile
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Music is my best friend.


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#1986385 - 11/13/12 10:50 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
OK....I think I know.

Joe: Do you mean something about the LEFT HAND?

I assumed you meant about the melody. I checked Mikuli, and sure enough, there's an F# in the RIGHT hand. It looks like you didn't realize (or forgot) that there's an F# in the RH. That's what made it hard to understand what you were talking about. And really I'm not sure I understand it even now. smile

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#1986388 - 11/13/12 10:57 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: argerichfan]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
There is also the possibility that there is a typo in his book (and that it doesn't have anything to do with "Mikuli").
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1986392 - 11/13/12 11:07 PM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Me2. Let's wait to find out what Joe meant.

Anyway: Looking at different editions, I see that there are differences in the left hand.


Edit: Be that as it may, I just learned something. smile

IMSLP has the Fontana manuscript -- and assuming that it's correct on this detail (and I'd have to guess it is), I've been playing it wrong forever, and so do many other people.

I've been re-striking the F# in the LH, sort of not realizing it's the same note that the RH had played previously as part of its octave, and that the note is tied over, not re-struck. (I've been re-striking it with the thumb of the LH.)

Maybe this is what Joe meant: Are you supposed to re-strike that F# in the bass?

I would rush to see what the Joseffy edition shows (because it's the main one I've used), but I'm in the middle of a move and my scores are nowhere to be found.

Can somebody check Joseffy.....


Edited by Mark_C (11/13/12 11:14 PM)

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#1986417 - 11/14/12 12:37 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Paderewski edition FTW. Why bother with something riddled with mistakes when you can get a reliable source for which is an amalgamation of several editions done by (several in fact) experts in Chopin and also which list (most if not) all the possible other options in the comments section at the back?

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#1986423 - 11/14/12 12:46 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5934
Loc: Down Under
Rather than (or in addition to, if you like smile ) posting a youtube clip and saying "at 3.30...", could you please mention the bar number? Then those of us with slow and dodgy internet connections could simply look it up in the score. I'd really appreciate it.
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Du holde Kunst...

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#1986452 - 11/14/12 02:26 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 557
Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
Paderewski edition FTW. Why bother with something riddled with mistakes when you can get a reliable source for which is an amalgamation of several editions done by (several in fact) experts in Chopin and also which list (most if not) all the possible other options in the comments section at the back?


+1

PE also shows the LH F# is tied from previous measure playing with RH


currawong, it's M293 in question
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"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#1986463 - 11/14/12 02:44 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: DanS]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5934
Loc: Down Under
Thanks, Dan. smile
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Du holde Kunst...

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#1986478 - 11/14/12 04:09 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: DanS]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: DanS

PE also shows the LH F# is tied from previous measure playing with RH


Cortot too.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1986490 - 11/14/12 05:36 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Woah, this thread inflated!

Sorry it took so long for me to get back. (i'm finally on a good sleeping schedule)



Okay, to clear things up: Yundi Li is definitely 100% re-striking the F-sharp in the LEFT HAND at 3:30 and the repetitions. It does not sound tied over at all. Take another listen!

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#1986499 - 11/14/12 06:14 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
your use of caps, bold and underlining is really makes you sound obnoxious


Edited by GeorgeB (11/14/12 06:16 AM)

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#1986500 - 11/14/12 06:18 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: GeorgeB]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
your use of caps, bold and underlining is really makes you sound obnoxious


THANKS!

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#1986505 - 11/14/12 06:53 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
FWIW, I've always thought those aspects of your posts have been fine. smile

The only thing is, you weren't clear on what you meant about the F# thing. ha

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#1986506 - 11/14/12 06:55 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: currawong
Rather than (or in addition to, if you like smile ) posting a youtube clip and saying "at 3.30...", could you please mention the bar number? Then those of us with slow and dodgy internet connections could simply look it up in the score. I'd really appreciate it.

I often do the same as he did because of not having immediate access to a score with measure numbers. Most scores don't have them.

Of course another way to achieve what you asked would be to post an image of that portion of the score, but I've never done that because despite several online 'tutorials' by our members, I've never been able to do it. I don't recall if Joe's done it or if he knows how.

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#1986517 - 11/14/12 07:40 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Even with a Paderweski edition its not always clear which variants to take. Henle editions are just as scholarly but they sometimes make different choices.

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#1986522 - 11/14/12 07:47 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: currawong
Rather than (or in addition to, if you like smile ) posting a youtube clip and saying "at 3.30...", could you please mention the bar number? Then those of us with slow and dodgy internet connections could simply look it up in the score. I'd really appreciate it.

I often do the same as he did because of not having immediate access to a score with measure numbers. Most scores don't have them.

Of course another way to achieve what you asked would be to post an image of that portion of the score, but I've never done that because despite several online 'tutorials' by our members, I've never been able to do it. I don't recall if Joe's done it or if he knows how.


Yea, my score doesn't list the bar numbers.

but..


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#1986528 - 11/14/12 08:07 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
....but..



SHOW-OFF!! grin

BTW, about the Paderewski edition: It seems that it's no longer so much considered the most authoritative one. The Polish National gets the most props.

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#1986536 - 11/14/12 08:20 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Mark I can teach you if you want to learn. It's really easy.

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#1986540 - 11/14/12 08:27 AM Re: Mikuli edition wrong? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: mazurkajoe
Mark I can teach you if you want to learn. It's really easy.

Sure, but please realize, lots of people have said that!

BTW, please don't make it a multi-step process. I can only do one. ha


(OK, maybe I could do 2.) smile

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