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#2060323 - 04/06/13 11:44 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Szymanowski, Ligeti, Dussek!!!!

Albeniz, De Falla, Granados, Villa Lobos, Ginastera, Lecuona, any other Latin American/Spanish composer

Griffes!

Also, this Stanchinsky work in particular is an underrated gem:


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#2060349 - 04/06/13 12:42 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: fnork]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: fnork
....I for one am fairly tired of the approach to music history where we have one Genius Composer carrying the torch of Western Classical Music until the next Genius Composer comes along and takes it over....A highly talented pianist I know....came across a little-known C minor piece (sonata perhaps, dont remember) by a mostly forgotten viennes classical composer that started with a motif close to identical to Mozart's C minor fantasy. After the closure on the dominant in the 2nd bar, the theme is re-stated one whole-tone down...As far as I remember, it was written in Vienna and pre-dates the Mozart piece by a year or two....

C'mon, don't hold out on us! ha
Who's the composer?

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#2060434 - 04/06/13 04:01 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
fnork Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1710
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
C'mon, don't hold out on us! ha
Who's the composer?

The ever-celebrated and over-performed...Leopold Kozeluch!!! Actually, saying that the motif is "close to identical" was an exaggeration, now that I looked back at the score. The similarity is still rather striking to my mind. Did Mozart hear this piece before he wrote the fantasy? Check the score for yourself:

Kozeluch sonata
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

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#2060446 - 04/06/13 04:20 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: fnork]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: fnork
....Did Mozart hear this piece before he wrote the fantasy? Check the score for yourself....

My goodness gracious. ha

I think Kozeluch was hanging out by Mozart's window, heard it, and wrote this real fast before Mozart could get his out. grin

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#2060461 - 04/06/13 05:30 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
Listen the spectacular Finale (from 4:12), however all iss marvellous.
And Blechacz is playing smile


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#2060779 - 04/07/13 01:13 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
I would start with the three M's: Mendelssohn, MacDowell, and Medtner. Surprised nobody has mentioned MacDowell yet, as his piano contributions are very accessible and modern-sounding in their simplicity.

Then there are the three H's: Handel, Hummel, and Hindemith.

Finally anybody who's surname begins with Ch. No, I'm not thinking of Chopin. I'm thinking of Cecile Chaminade and Emmanuel Chabrier.

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#2060847 - 04/07/13 04:23 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
FarmGirl Online   content

Silver Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1909
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?
_________________________
Solo - Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2, Schubert Sonata D960 Andante sostenute (9/7/14), Bach f minor Fugue WTC Bk1, Rachmaninoff Elegie Op 3 #1, Chopin Trois Nouvelles Etudes #1



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#2060850 - 04/07/13 04:26 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: FarmGirl]
fnork Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1710
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

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#2060968 - 04/07/13 07:19 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: fnork]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8828
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.

Perhaps, but I don't hear his piano sonata as being particularly inferior to the Barber, if the latter has more opportunities for the virtuoso.

Elliott Carter's early sonata (from 1945) seems to me a better work than either.
_________________________
Jason

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#2060992 - 04/07/13 08:20 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Numerian]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Numerian
I would start with the three M's: Mendelssohn, MacDowell, and Medtner...
Then there are the three H's: Handel, Hummel, and Hindemith.
Finally anybody who's surname begins with Ch. No, I'm not thinking of Chopin. I'm thinking of Cecile Chaminade and Emmanuel Chabrier.

What about the 3 I's: Ives, and Ippolitov-Ivanov (counts as 2! if only he'd written more for piano). ha

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#2061064 - 04/07/13 11:13 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
synergy543 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 102
Godowsky was probably 'somewhat' neglected due to the difficulty of much of his music and the fact that many of them are arrangements (although I'd really consider them compositions). Some of his works are more accessible such as his Corelli arrangements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkzwQyBbOaE

And while not a "great" composer, Karen Tanaka is under-represented on the forum probably because of the language barrier, and that most of the time her name is written in Japanese.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QijRw4aeNF0


Edited by synergy543 (04/08/13 01:39 AM)

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#2061177 - 04/08/13 07:45 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: fnork]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.


There isn't a lot of it to hear, it basically can all fit onto a single CD (and, BTW, Hyperion is releasing just such a CD this month, played by Garrick Ohlsson).

I think I find most of it more interesting and attractive than you seem to. As far as innovation goes, his sonata was fairly innovative, and there's still nothing else quite like it. It was really a terrible loss to music that he died (at age 35) just as he was starting to really find his voice as a composer.

Speaking of innovation, how important is it in determining the quality of a composer's output? Of course, simply developing an individual style is a kind of innovation in itself. But innovation in the larger sense doesn't seem to me to be a requirement for good music. After all, J. S. Bach was never that much of a ground-breaking innovator.

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#2061283 - 04/08/13 01:28 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: wr]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.


There isn't a lot of it to hear, it basically can all fit onto a single CD (and, BTW, Hyperion is releasing just such a CD this month, played by Garrick Ohlsson).

I think I find most of it more interesting and attractive than you seem to. As far as innovation goes, his sonata was fairly innovative, and there's still nothing else quite like it. It was really a terrible loss to music that he died (at age 35) just as he was starting to really find his voice as a composer.

Speaking of innovation, how important is it in determining the quality of a composer's output? Of course, simply developing an individual style is a kind of innovation in itself. But innovation in the larger sense doesn't seem to me to be a requirement for good music. After all, J. S. Bach was never that much of a ground-breaking innovator.




I said Griffes! His music is pleasant and unique.

I too don't appreciate people judging a composer on how innovative they were. Not that I don't like the modern direction of art music, but I'd love to hear a new piece that is somewhat consonant and using the harmonic language developed over hundreds of years. I don't see the big deal!

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#2061366 - 04/08/13 04:47 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: wr]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.


There isn't a lot of it to hear, it basically can all fit onto a single CD (and, BTW, Hyperion is releasing just such a CD this month, played by Garrick Ohlsson).

I think I find most of it more interesting and attractive than you seem to. As far as innovation goes, his sonata was fairly innovative, and there's still nothing else quite like it. It was really a terrible loss to music that he died (at age 35) just as he was starting to really find his voice as a composer.

Speaking of innovation, how important is it in determining the quality of a composer's output? Of course, simply developing an individual style is a kind of innovation in itself. But innovation in the larger sense doesn't seem to me to be a requirement for good music. After all, J. S. Bach was never that much of a ground-breaking innovator.




I like to play the Fountains of Acqua Paola once in a while, after folks have forgotten the last time I played it.. beautiful late-Romantic piece. I don't buy the line that he was just parroting Debussy.. I hear shades of Liszt's Annees more than anything, but the harmonic language is original.

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#2061383 - 04/08/13 05:09 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: jeffreyjones]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.


There isn't a lot of it to hear, it basically can all fit onto a single CD (and, BTW, Hyperion is releasing just such a CD this month, played by Garrick Ohlsson).

I think I find most of it more interesting and attractive than you seem to. As far as innovation goes, his sonata was fairly innovative, and there's still nothing else quite like it. It was really a terrible loss to music that he died (at age 35) just as he was starting to really find his voice as a composer.

Speaking of innovation, how important is it in determining the quality of a composer's output? Of course, simply developing an individual style is a kind of innovation in itself. But innovation in the larger sense doesn't seem to me to be a requirement for good music. After all, J. S. Bach was never that much of a ground-breaking innovator.




I like to play the Fountains of Acqua Paola once in a while, after folks have forgotten the last time I played it.. beautiful late-Romantic piece. I don't buy the line that he was just parroting Debussy.. I hear shades of Liszt's Annees more than anything, but the harmonic language is original.


Nightfall from the same set is also a really neat piece with some cool harmonies. LOVE the changes from 1:15-1:22 here:



I've noticed that more than a few of his works have the Ravel "Le Gibet" thing going on in them with the repeated notes.


Edited by didyougethathing (04/08/13 05:11 PM)

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#2061386 - 04/08/13 05:12 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7520
Loc: New York City
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2061399 - 04/08/13 05:26 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Polyphonist]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



That would get ugly fast! help

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#2061436 - 04/08/13 06:59 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: didyougethathing]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7520
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



That would get ugly fast! help


I guess it might. grin I guess I won't instigate that discussion then. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2061497 - 04/08/13 09:05 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



I'm tempted.

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#2061527 - 04/08/13 09:46 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7520
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



That would get ugly fast! help


I guess it might. grin I guess I won't instigate that discussion then. ha


Originally Posted By: JoelW

I'm tempted.


Oh well, looks like I already have. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2061558 - 04/08/13 10:18 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Polyphonist]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



You mean thread?

I think something along those lines was attempted once, and IIRC, it got shot down as being mean-spirited and juvenile pretty quickly.

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#2061562 - 04/08/13 10:29 PM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: wr]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7520
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



You mean thread?

I think something along those lines was attempted once, and IIRC, it got shot down as being mean-spirited and juvenile pretty quickly.


Yes, I try to get the "thread" and "forum" thing right, but sometimes when it's late I tend to mix them up. ha

And nobody was supposed to take that suggestion too seriously; I figured it had probably been done before but had to say it anyway. grin
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Polyphonist

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#2061622 - 04/09/13 12:34 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2280
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Scarlatti seems neglected here. Ralph Kirkpatrick says he was the most original keyboard composer of his century.


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Gary Schenk

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#2061631 - 04/09/13 12:43 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Plowboy]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Scarlatti seems neglected here. Ralph Kirkpatrick says he was the most original keyboard composer of his century.


While I don't agree that he's neglected, I do agree with the statement by Kirkpatrick. He is widely performed, but I still feel he is greatly overshadowed by Bach.

Scarlatti's keyboard music is some of the freshest, most original stuff I've heard from that era. And you get your money's worth with 555 sonatas to choose from!

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#2061634 - 04/09/13 12:50 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Polyphonist]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



RVW.

/flee!

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#2061649 - 04/09/13 01:36 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: jeffreyjones]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Have we ever done a forum about overrated composers? ha



RVW.

/flee!


That's quite a tame one, compared to who I'm thinking of. grin

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#2061687 - 04/09/13 04:24 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: Mark_C]
fnork Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1710
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Now that keyboard composers of Scarlatti's era are mentioned - how about Soler?
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http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

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#2061716 - 04/09/13 06:04 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: fnork]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: fnork
Now that keyboard composers of Scarlatti's era are mentioned - how about Soler?


I'd agree - Soler is neglected here at PW.

And in concert, too, although I once did hear someone (Santiago Rodriguez, IIRC) play that extremely obsessive fandango of Soler's in a recital. Well, it was attributed to Soler, anyway...I understand that attribution is not very certain anymore.

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#2061752 - 04/09/13 08:21 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: wr]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 783
Loc: Brighton, UK
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
How about the American composer Charles Griffes?

Not that I've heard an awful lot so far but he seems to have been very uneven, and perhaps not very innovative either.


There isn't a lot of it to hear, it basically can all fit onto a single CD (and, BTW, Hyperion is releasing just such a CD this month, played by Garrick Ohlsson).

I think I find most of it more interesting and attractive than you seem to. As far as innovation goes, his sonata was fairly innovative, and there's still nothing else quite like it. It was really a terrible loss to music that he died (at age 35) just as he was starting to really find his voice as a composer.

I agree with this about Griffes, especially with regard to his sonata. I find it powerful, painful, poignant, haunting. The only piano music I know that sounds a bit similar in places is Alexander Tcherepnin's first piano sonata, which was completed a year later than the Griffes sonata in 1919. The harmonic language is similar because in these works Griffes mostly uses an 8-note scale while Tcherepnin mostly uses a 9-note scale. Griffes writes using a D minor triad combined with the pentatonic scale on black notes, and Tcherepnin uses three overlapping STS tetrachords. Spelling out both scales from A:

Griff: A, B flat, C sharp, D, E flat, F, F sharp, G sharp, A
Tcher: A, B flat, C, C sharp, D, E, F, F sharp, G sharp, A

So Griffes uses E flat instead of E natural, and does not have a C natural, compared to the Tcherepnin scale. To my ears, the Griffes sounds more dissonant, and also feels more "rhapsodic", with a narrative sweep more important than structure, while the Tcherepnin sounds more constrained and formal.

Originally Posted By: wr
Speaking of innovation, how important is it in determining the quality of a composer's output? Of course, simply developing an individual style is a kind of innovation in itself. But innovation in the larger sense doesn't seem to me to be a requirement for good music. After all, J. S. Bach was never that much of a ground-breaking innovator.

I agree.

By the way, my vote for the most neglected great piano composer on Pianist Corner, who has already been mentioned in this thread, is Grieg. Perhaps this is due to the emphasis placed here on stretching one's technique, and discovering little-known gems by little-known composers. Grieg might seem too common or obvious or "easy" to some. I think he wrote all kinds of gems that are worth exploring, both on their own merits and also to appreciate how influential they were on other late-romantic composers, which I think is also under-estimated. (For example, just listen to Debussy's early choral work La damoiselle élue. Do you think Debussy might have loved Grieg's piano concerto very much, especially the melody, harmonies and progressions of the second theme to the first movement? I do.)
_________________________
Julian

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#2062278 - 04/10/13 05:15 AM Re: 'Most neglected' great piano composer on Pianist Corner? [Re: SlatterFan]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: SlatterFan


By the way, my vote for the most neglected great piano composer on Pianist Corner, who has already been mentioned in this thread, is Grieg. Perhaps this is due to the emphasis placed here on stretching one's technique, and discovering little-known gems by little-known composers. Grieg might seem too common or obvious or "easy" to some. I think he wrote all kinds of gems that are worth exploring, both on their own merits and also to appreciate how influential they were on other late-romantic composers, which I think is also under-estimated. (For example, just listen to Debussy's early choral work La damoiselle élue. Do you think Debussy might have loved Grieg's piano concerto very much, especially the melody, harmonies and progressions of the second theme to the first movement? I do.)


It's always been interesting to me that Gilels and Richter, neither of whom dabbled much in light-weight music, played hefty chunks of the Lyric Pieces. That's telling, I think.

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