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#1986547 - 11/14/12 08:49 AM A NEW KIND OF STYLE
music-P Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/12
Posts: 60
Loc: Philippines
Hi guys!

I am currently learning m. clementi sonatina op 36. no 5. I don't actually like its dynamics so i changed it became more expressive and legato, more of chopin I think. But I feel I am disrespecting clementi because of it.

do you think its fine?


Edited by music-P (11/14/12 08:52 AM)

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#1986563 - 11/14/12 09:11 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
Roger Ransom Offline
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Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1254
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
In my opinion, unless you are playing in public or for exams or something, you can play it any way it makes YOU happy.

I don't think Clementi will care.
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#1986581 - 11/14/12 10:20 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: Roger Ransom]
CarlosCC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 1354
Loc: Lisbon, Portugal
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
In my opinion, unless you are playing in public or for exams or something, you can play it any way it makes YOU happy.

I don't think Clementi will care.


+1 thumb
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#1986640 - 11/14/12 12:57 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5296
Loc: Philadelphia
I tend to agree, but I will also say this: if your goal is to become a better pianist and musician, then one of your focal points should be on learning to play as many styles of music as you can, from baroque through modern. To do that, you must learn the style as the style was intended to be played. Otherwise, it would be like learning the words of a foreign language, but not the pronunciation. You're really only learning half of what you set out to learn. wink
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#1986676 - 11/14/12 02:57 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: Derulux]
kayvee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Santa Barbara
Originally Posted By: Derulux
I tend to agree, but I will also say this: if your goal is to become a better pianist and musician, then one of your focal points should be on learning to play as many styles of music as you can, from baroque through modern. To do that, you must learn the style as the style was intended to be played. Otherwise, it would be like learning the words of a foreign language, but not the pronunciation. You're really only learning half of what you set out to learn. wink
This, with one caveat:

It's okay to change certain things in pieces...that's why we have many different interpretations for every piece out there.

However, I want to point out that this is for INTERPRETIVE purposes. It shouldn't end up being a crutch to play pieces that are too hard for you, which is what a lot of people end up doing. I don't think that's necessarily the case for the OP (as who in their right mind would choose Clementi Sonatina #5 for a piece to learn as something beyond their level?), but it is something to think about.

So always ALWAYS be able to play it the 'right' way first. If you can't play it right, then you can't actually play it. If you can play it right... well, the old adage goes something like "First learn the rules. Then break them."
_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:
"Going back to the basics..."

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#1986777 - 11/14/12 08:11 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: kayvee]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: kayvee

So always ALWAYS be able to play it the 'right' way first. If you can't play it right, then you can't actually play it.


At first this seemed a little harsh, but I assume what you mean is that until one can play something the right way, one cannot claim to be able to play it. (One can, however, perform it for themselves and other consenting adults?) The reason I'm interested is because I'd like to understand what level of perfection is necessary before I can claim, "I can play ...". How do I know when I am "playing it right"?

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#1986794 - 11/14/12 09:03 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: SoundThumb]
kayvee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Santa Barbara
Originally Posted By: SoundThumb
Originally Posted By: kayvee

So always ALWAYS be able to play it the 'right' way first. If you can't play it right, then you can't actually play it.


At first this seemed a little harsh, but I assume what you mean is that until one can play something the right way, one cannot claim to be able to play it. (One can, however, perform it for themselves and other consenting adults?) The reason I'm interested is because I'd like to understand what level of perfection is necessary before I can claim, "I can play ...". How do I know when I am "playing it right"?
Yes, that is what I meant - as in, one can't claim to be able to play it.

Of course, one can choose any song and play it at whatever speed/quality they want to. But that's not really 'playing' it, often. Can't pick up the Winter Etude as your first piece and play it sixteenth note mm=50 and say you're playing it.

I don't think there is one answer to when you can claim whether you know something. If you think you know it, ask someone who will know whether you know it if they'll take a listen and let you know if you know it. Know what I mean laugh? I don't mean for it to be as clear-cut as it sounds, of course, but there are definitely varying levels of being able to play something that all count as being able to actually play it.

ETA: Remember, my post was directed to people who just grab a piece and change it IN ORDER TO ENABLE THEIR ABILITY TO PLAY IT. It doesn't have to do with interpretative changes or decisions, or even not having a piece perfected.


Edited by kayvee (11/14/12 09:04 PM)
_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:
"Going back to the basics..."

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#1986883 - 11/14/12 10:46 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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I think it's perfectly OK to play something wrong as long as you know it's wrong and not thinking that's how it's written and doing it wrong...if that makes sense. Chances are you're not playing for a bunch of stuffy music professors (apologies to all the stuffy music professors out there wink ), so play it how you like. If you ever play it for someone, just call it your own "arrangement" of a popular classical piano piece.


Edited by Morodiene (11/14/12 10:46 PM)
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#1986917 - 11/15/12 01:18 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
music-P Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/12
Posts: 60
Loc: Philippines
thanks guys and this clementi sonatina if actually fun to learn especially mvt 1. I will almost master the sonatina and ill give a beep when it's done.

Its quite a busy month I have.

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#1986924 - 11/15/12 01:46 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5246
Loc: Europe
Do as you please really in private... But make sure you understand how the 'right' way sounds and should be (like others said). Then do as you please. Learning the piano means being able to decipher the information in a score in front of you. If you can do that you're fine to do whatever you want with it later on. If you can't then you should focus on learning that first and the doing as you please...
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#1986933 - 11/15/12 02:13 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: kayvee]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: kayvee
"First learn the rules. Then break them."


I don't know that my teacher is aware of this actual quote, but if he were, it would be by far his favorite in his teaching method.

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#1987141 - 11/15/12 03:56 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
Thanks, everyone. As I considered my question over night, I came up with a definition that seems to agree with the responses you have given me.

You are playing a piece the right way if you can perform it for your intended audience and they don't laugh at you.

And of course, you can only claim to be able to play the piece to this audience of suitably impressed and somber people.

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#1987154 - 11/15/12 04:32 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: SoundThumb]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1837
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: SoundThumb
You are playing a piece the right way if you can perform it for your intended audience and they don't laugh at you.



Well .....I think I would modify that just a bit ...

You are playing a piece the right way if you could perform it for the AUTHOR and he/she would not laugh at you.


After that, play it for any audience you like and you won't worry about what their reaction is.
_________________________
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#1987179 - 11/15/12 05:14 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
Ouch! Now that is really setting the bar high.

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#1987199 - 11/15/12 06:12 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2339
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Play the notes as printed with dynamics, articulation and phrasing that don't disagree with the score and then you'll hear what the composer is telling you. Then you can decide if you can say it a better way.
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Richard

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#1987204 - 11/15/12 06:32 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: zrtf90]
Euphonatrix Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Hessen, Germany
well said.
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#1987239 - 11/15/12 08:30 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
So until I can play a piece exactly as indicated by the score, I can't claim to be able to play it. OK. Got it. Thanks.

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#1987244 - 11/15/12 08:47 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: SoundThumb]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2339
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: SoundThumb
So until I can play a piece exactly as indicated by the score, I can't claim to be able to play it. OK. Got it. Thanks.

Still not quite there!

Until you can play a piece exactly as indicated by the score you can't claim to be able to play it exactly as indicated by the score. smile

The point is you should read or play what the composer wrote and understand what he's saying before you change it.

You can change it to make it easier if you like. You can change it because you don't like the way it's written. But you shouldn't change it before you've got the message.
_________________________
Richard

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#1987291 - 11/16/12 01:12 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
I appreciate your patience in explaining this. I think I've now got the correct message.

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#1987341 - 11/16/12 05:51 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: music-P
Hi guys!

I am currently learning m. clementi sonatina op 36. no 5. I don't actually like its dynamics so i changed it became more expressive and legato, more of chopin I think. But I feel I am disrespecting clementi because of it.

do you think its fine?



Yes, I do think it’s fine.

There are countless ways of being a musician or being musical and the most important of these is to provide pleasure for yourself. If someone had dropped me a fiver every time I was persuaded to learn the rules before breaking them I’d probably by now be able to take a week’s vacation in a resort of my choice. It’s a principle I’ve consciously rejected without, I believe, coming to any harm.

Of course, there are countless musical objectives also and arguably the best route for some of these (e.g. 'excellence') would entail the systematic and disciplined approach discussed here. I can’t disagree with that (because I simply don’t know and I’m not nor will I ever be, nor am I aiming to be, ‘excellent’) but curiosity and experiment are parallel pleasures which can only be effectively served by doing one’s own thing. Not forgetting that doing one’s own thing can be a pleasure in itself. In any case, a destination can often be reached via several paths. An entirely formalised one might be unsuitable or less efficient for those with maverick instincts.

The inspectorate charged with examining the claim “I can play this” is another matter entirely – and not a particularly interesting one. I’m fairly sure Mrs. Tonic sets the bar quite low.

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#1987569 - 11/16/12 05:52 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
kayvee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Santa Barbara
dire tonic,

What's "bad" about what you say is that you can get people grabbing a bunch of very difficult pieces, plunking through them, and then saying "They can play them and I don't know if you don't like it because I like it and this is all subjective and NYAHNYAHNYAHIAMAWHINYBABY."

Because, really, that is what happens. They don't have to say those exact words to sound like a whiny baby, but chances are, they will sound like one.

Which is okay. I never think people shouldn't try to play hard pieces just because they want to; but it shouldn't be done with the idea that just ANYTHING is okay and peachy. There are standards; disregarding them in practice is one thing. Disregarding them in principle is another.

With all this, the idea is, you can't improve if you don't try. Having that crutch is what holds people back and they'll never really get to the level they hope to. If you think "Learn the rules before you break them" isn't a smart idea, then I'm going to guess you really haven't improved much in any area of your endeavors.
_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:
"Going back to the basics..."

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#1987574 - 11/16/12 06:12 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: music-P]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5507
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Wow.

Cathy
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#1987599 - 11/16/12 07:53 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: kayvee]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: kayvee
If you think "Learn the rules before you break them" isn't a smart idea, then I'm going to guess you really haven't improved much in any area of your endeavors.



- not even in an itsy bitsy teenie weenie area of my endeavours?



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#1987613 - 11/16/12 08:40 PM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: dire tonic]
kayvee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Santa Barbara
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: kayvee
If you think "Learn the rules before you break them" isn't a smart idea, then I'm going to guess you really haven't improved much in any area of your endeavors.



- not even in an itsy bitsy teenie weenie area of my endeavours?

Maybe a itsy bitsy teenie weenie area.

My point is, you shouldn't strive for never bettering yourself (whatever that may mean). And you can't improve if you never have goals or an idea of how something can be made better. Part of that is not just the subjective "anything I like is better" because people fall into the trap of playing the Winter Etude at sixteenth note = 40 mm, one-handed forever, just so they can say they "played" it.

Of course, I think this applies to everyone, including myself. It wasn't meant to be an attack on you personally. "You" as in the general you, and all that.
_________________________
A linguistics major who loves piano and knows too much theory/history without knowing how to play it as well as he wants to be able to.

Let's hope that changes. Taught piano for almost two years and currently working on:
"Going back to the basics..."

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#1987700 - 11/17/12 03:38 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: kayvee]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: kayvee

My point is, you shouldn't strive for never bettering yourself


Of course, but that has diddly squat to do with my point which is about eschewing rules, not descent into sloth.

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#1987738 - 11/17/12 08:49 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: dire tonic]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11764
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: kayvee

My point is, you shouldn't strive for never bettering yourself


Of course, but that has diddly squat to do with my point which is about eschewing rules, not descent into sloth.




Like I said in my post, it's one thing to do something because you cannot vs. being able to and choosing another sound. Which is it for you?
_________________________
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#1988387 - 11/19/12 05:01 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Like I said in my post, it's one thing to do something because you cannot vs. being able to and choosing another sound. Which is it for you?


Some tasks look to me like the vertical face of the Eiger so I don't even try. Others I might attempt then give up as it dawns on me that it will be time wasted for the level of satisfaction achieved. Then others are borderline.....but I’m not sure I've understood your question, Morodiene. I don't know what you mean by "choosing another sound".

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#1988422 - 11/19/12 08:18 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: dire tonic]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11764
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Like I said in my post, it's one thing to do something because you cannot vs. being able to and choosing another sound. Which is it for you?


Some tasks look to me like the vertical face of the Eiger so I don't even try. Others I might attempt then give up as it dawns on me that it will be time wasted for the level of satisfaction achieved. Then others are borderline.....but I’m not sure I've understood your question, Morodiene. I don't know what you mean by "choosing another sound".




The OP talked about playing in a new style, meaning making something sound the way they want it to rather than a more traditional approach might be - at least that is what I got from the OP. So if you are making a sound that is different on purpose, I'm all for that. But if you make it because you are not able to od otherwise, then I think perhaps you are short-changing yourself.
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1988460 - 11/19/12 09:51 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

The OP talked about playing in a new style, meaning making something sound the way they want it to rather than a more traditional approach might be - at least that is what I got from the OP. So if you are making a sound that is different on purpose, I'm all for that. But if you make it because you are not able to od otherwise, then I think perhaps you are short-changing yourself.


But doesn’t that lead to a paradox of opportunity where those who have the skills to play a piece as intended needn’t do so while those who lack the skills to play as intended can do nothing?

For the aspiring virtuoso it perhaps makes sense to do things ‘properly' in a coherent order and to be patient, but if it’s all for personal pleasure, why impose a regime? As I remember it, the sheet music industry had a profitable sideline turning out easy arrangements of most of the tricky well-known classics just for those who wanted to play for the fun of it. Even serious students must have played some of these on their way up.

In any case, whether we are deadly serious or just it in for the fun, we can still make leaps and bounds while engaging in music recreationally. Such leaps may not always be in approved directions but if they lead us to focus our minds on tasks which we deem important for ourselves I see no evidence that it matters.

This is from a self-taught perspective. I can see how it might not correspond with that of a teacher.


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#1988472 - 11/19/12 10:06 AM Re: A NEW KIND OF STYLE [Re: dire tonic]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1837
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

The OP talked about playing in a new style, meaning making something sound the way they want it to rather than a more traditional approach might be - at least that is what I got from the OP. So if you are making a sound that is different on purpose, I'm all for that. But if you make it because you are not able to od otherwise, then I think perhaps you are short-changing yourself.


But doesn’t that lead to a paradox of opportunity where those who have the skills to play a piece as intended needn’t do so while those who lack the skills to play as intended can do nothing?

For the aspiring virtuoso it perhaps makes sense to do things ‘properly' in a coherent order and to be patient, but if it’s all for personal pleasure, why impose a regime? As I remember it, the sheet music industry had a profitable sideline turning out easy arrangements of most of the tricky well-known classics just for those who wanted to play for the fun of it. Even serious students must have played some of these on their way up.

In any case, whether we are deadly serious or just it in for the fun, we can still make leaps and bounds while engaging in music recreationally. Such leaps may not always be in approved directions but if they lead us to focus our minds on tasks which we deem important for ourselves I see no evidence that it matters.

This is from a self-taught perspective. I can see how it might not correspond with that of a teacher.



Well, obviously you can play things any way you wish to.

The problem with doing that is that it may tend to keep you playing things at a very comfortable level which may prevent growth as a player.

You've heard of "no pain, no gain" ?

It applies to almost anything in which there is some level of effort required in order to achieve various levels of skill.

When you play things "the way you want" or "with your style", you have basically decided to bypass the effort required to gain the skill needed to play it the way the author intended.

That is fine but it also may rob you of the joy of playing with a higher level of expertise.

If that does not matter to you ... have at it.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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