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#1985792 - 11/12/12 04:48 PM Piano Buyer / Larry Fine
frog97 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 41
Loc: West side of the Globe
Anyone walked into a piano store for this first time carrying Piano buyer or anything from Larry Fine etc.
What was the reaction, did it help to negotiate?
Any interesting conversations?
Regards,

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#1985798 - 11/12/12 04:55 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
Deerwood Dad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 478
Loc: Minneapolis
I did when I was looking at Bostons and Kawais, and the people who were trying to tell me that Boston's were more like Steinways than Kawais quality-wise (even when I told them I thought both Bostons and Kawais were terrific) were dismissive of Larry. They also didn't like the way their Essex and Christifori lines were dissed by Larry. Other dealers were happy I was taking time to educate myself. Best wishes on your search, and by all means, take your time.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A (2006); Yamaha P140

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#1985823 - 11/12/12 05:46 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
bbuckis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 81
I once mentioned the Piano Buyer publication at my local Yamaha dealer.
The sales person laughed and said, "That's written by a piano technician.
What does he know. "
_________________________
The only thing preventing me from owning a Steinway & Sons produced piano, is Steinway & Sons Customer Service. They should work on that.

Fortunately the piano I want the most is sold by Steinway & Sons!
Unfortunately the piano I want the most is only sold by Steinway & Sons.

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#1985838 - 11/12/12 06:30 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: bbuckis]
Symon Says Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 20
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I based my offer to the dealer on Larry's SMP minus an additional 15% (as a starting point) which ended up upsetting him somewhat. Apparently it was a low offer based on market conditions but we got past it and worked out a deal. Its definitely a tool in your toolbox, despite what your dealer may think.
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1985843 - 11/12/12 06:37 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
We prominantly display and often lend out copies of Piano Buyer.

Our website states on several pages that we adhere the the price ranges denoted in Piano Buyer.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1985924 - 11/12/12 10:25 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
Chopinlover49 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 612
Loc: NY and NC
A very important piano dealer in our area has a copy prominently displayed and allows all who visit the store to look at it. I don't think it hurts his bottom line at all. He carries Bechsteins, Bosendoerfers, Faziolis, Mason-Hamlins, Schimmels, Estonias, and even rebuilt and used Steinways and other top brands. When shopping, I have never brought a copy with me, but I have read and re-read it many times and learned a lot. It certainly didn't hurt when I was shopping for my piano.
_________________________
2004 Mason-Hamlin polished ebony BB.
Working on jazz standards and Chopin nocturnes, preludes, and mazurkas (the easier ones.)

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#1986033 - 11/13/12 07:41 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: bbuckis]
Rich Galassini Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8975
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
We also display and make copies of Piano Buyer available to our customers, and have since the very first Piano Book came out in 1989 (??).

Independent information is never a bad thing when making a decision on something as important as a piano.

Originally Posted By: bbuckis
I once mentioned the Piano Buyer publication at my local Yamaha dealer.
The sales person laughed and said, "That's written by a piano technician.
What does he know. "


First, the book is not, and never has been, written in a vacuum. This is not just Mr. Fine's personal opinion (unless he states that particular observation is, in fact, his personal opinion).

I would be more inclined to say, "He is a salesperson. What does HE know?" smile

*(No offense meant to the many well informed and well educated salespeople here on this forum)
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#1986061 - 11/13/12 09:29 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6091
Loc: Rochester MN
Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1986065 - 11/13/12 09:38 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.


Since Piano Buyer is available free online, very few dealers stock it for sale. The Piano Book, while still available, much of its content is rather dated.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1986071 - 11/13/12 10:01 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Steve Cohen]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6091
Loc: Rochester MN
Steve,

I agree with what you say, however, how do shoppers learn about the books or the fact that they are available online? PB certainly doesn't have the same visibility as "Consumer Reports." I don't think that I'm alone in preferring a printed volume for self-education and research before making a major purchase.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1986082 - 11/13/12 10:35 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10341
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Steve,

I agree with what you say, however, how do shoppers learn about the books or the fact that they are available online? PB certainly doesn't have the same visibility as "Consumer Reports." I don't think that I'm alone in preferring a printed volume for self-education and research before making a major purchase.


Even though I have no financial interest, far be it from me to discourage anyone from ordering the print edition (at www.pianobuyer.com). wink

Most shoppers find out about PianoBuyer through organic search results from the major search engines, or right here on the Piano Forum. It is also recommended on the website of many technicians (including the PTG), dealers and teachers.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1986154 - 11/13/12 12:26 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Steve Cohen]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 430
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
The Piano Book, while still available, much of its content is rather dated.


It isn't outdated for those shopping the used market.
_________________________
'86 Baldwin SF-10

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#1986287 - 11/13/12 06:15 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13969
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Like all good books, Piano Buyer is highly informative but can also sometimes transpire to confuse.

All the books in the world don't replace the discovery of a product's innate nature such as a musical instrument.

It is something shoppers for such item will have to discover themselves just as most shoppers in Europe and other countries have always done.

A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it.

Nor does it things like the quality of the business one happens to be dealing with.

These intangibles are sometimes as much or even more important the the product itself.

The problem is that many buyers often don't play themselves and have a reluctance to make decisions for themselves.

Instead they rely on certain others, be this a teacher, a friend, neighbor or "book".

In this regard Piano Buyer is certainly a valuable resource but IMHO it is as easy making a "mistake" or at least not "the optimal purchase" - than without it.

It is often the irony of arming oneself with all kinds of knowledge - especially concerning such things as musical instruments - that in the end 'decisions' are and remain a largely personal thing.

Not really totally different from many other big ticket shopping items in life.

Just seemingly a bit more difficult perhaps...

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (11/13/12 06:27 PM)
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#1986290 - 11/13/12 06:25 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Norbert]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Norbert
A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it or things like the quality of business one happens to be dealing with.
Of course it doesn't. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the book.

Originally Posted By: Norbert
The problem is that many buyers often don't play themselves and have a reluctance to make decision for themselves. Instead they rely on certain others, be this a teacher, a friend, neighbor or "book".
Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.





Edited by pianoloverus (11/13/12 06:30 PM)

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#1986292 - 11/13/12 06:29 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13969
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Of course it doesn't. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the book.


Exactly.

A buyer's concern goes beyond that - it concerns "real life" situations.

Quote:
Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.


It may be *reasonable* but not necessary fruitful or productive.

5 different opinions don't exactly make achieving one's own any easier.

My basic point is anybody can buy whatever they like or is recommended by whatever source.

For those who don't play or are not personally tuned into tone and touch of an instrument, none of it makes much difference.

For those who "do" - it's just about everything.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (11/13/12 07:12 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1986395 - 11/13/12 11:17 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: bbuckis]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bbuckis
I once mentioned the Piano Buyer publication at my local Yamaha dealer.
The sales person laughed and said, "That's written by a piano technician.
What does he know. "

ha

Among other things about that, Larry is actually a fine pianist.

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#1986400 - 11/13/12 11:40 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Piano World Offline


Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5528
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (originally N...
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Do any piano stores offer "A&D Piano Buyer" or "The Piano Book" for sale in the store? Having the books available for purchase could be very helpful to those who are in the market for a piano or a digital.

After all, not all shoppers visit Piano World before shopping and have the opportunity to learn that the books are even available.


Ah, perhaps not.

But nearly six million of them did last year (and that's unique visitors, not "hits" or "page views").
I don't know too many print publications that can claim six million readers :-)

In fact I don't know too many (or any other) online piano sites that can legitimately claim anywhere near as many visitors.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, just pretty proud of what PW has become.

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#1986514 - 11/14/12 07:24 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Piano World]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1591
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
As well you should be, Frank!

Thanks for all you do for this wonderful community.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1986544 - 11/14/12 08:30 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: Norbert]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Of course it doesn't. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the book.


Exactly.

A buyer's concern goes beyond that - it concerns "real life" situations.
Your original post made it sound like not including a discussion of the quality of the dealer was something missing from the book and this is not the case.

Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Which is a 100% reasonable thing to do. And reasonable people will continue doing it.


It may be *reasonable* but not necessary fruitful or productive. 5 different opinions don't exactly make achieving one's own any easier.For those who don't play or are not personally tuned into tone and touch of an instrument, none of it makes much difference.
No approach is guaranteed to be fruitful.

Those who don't play or play only a little or who are not extremely familiar with the different possibilities of tone/touch still want to make an informed decision. They do not want to be dissatisfied later on when they may become more able to evaluate tone and touch. That's why they often ask for help at Piano World or consult the Piano Buyer or those who they think are knowledgeable. The PB in particular offer a degree of objectivity very hard to find in a showroom.

It's absolutely reasonable to do this and it is, in fact, a very good idea to proceed this way.

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#1986703 - 11/14/12 05:11 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
One of the OP's questions was:

Quote:
did it help to negotiate?


Before you start you need to know what you want to negotiate.

If it simply means price negotiation (in the U.S.) the book will certainly help as it gives a good initial orientation into the piano market and the pricing structure (or rather the lack of it).

However this is far from what is 'pinao buying' about.

The book will not elp you acquiring or negotiating the paino that is best for you because theis book or any other written or electronic resource lacks indeed:

Quote:
A 'book' also doesn't take into consideration professional ethics of local brand representation, the companies behind it.

Nor does it things like the quality of the business one happens to be dealing with.


And
Quote:
These intangibles are sometimes as much or even more important the the product itself.
, yes indeed.

It has been quite a while I posted my adagio here on this forum:

'the biggest challenge in the whole buying process is putting toghether a shortlist of brands and dealers you would like to do business with because of whet they stand for'

E.g. there are a few brands I would not buy because of the questionable ethics and there are dealer I would never buy from whatever brand they might represent.

Should there ever be a publication that
Quote:
a discussion of the quality of the dealer
I would be the first one to buy a copy. However I am afraid there will never be such a resource of information.
Yhis is something you will have to find out for yourself - unfortunately sometimes experience yourself.

schwammerl.

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#1987250 - 11/15/12 09:04 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
manyhands Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 106
Loc: Md
the book was most helpful in my search for a used piano.
I learned about construction and wide variety of mfg.. No need to take it to the dealer but it served as a basis for my evaluation check list and helped narrow the brands I wanted to play. Thank you Mr Fine and consultants.!
_________________________
many hands many smiles

Big Mama Yama U1

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#1987538 - 11/16/12 04:17 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97]
frog97 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 41
Loc: West side of the Globe
I went home for lunch and my wife gave me the mail, the PW books I ordered where there. I can’t wait to dive into them and start reading, I bought on old hard copy and a new supplement to the book for 2012.
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#1987567 - 11/16/12 05:50 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: schwammerl]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: schwammerl
One of the OP's questions was:

Quote:
did it help to negotiate?


Before you start you need to know what you want to negotiate.

If it simply means price negotiation (in the U.S.) the book will certainly help as it gives a good initial orientation into the piano market and the pricing structure (or rather the lack of it).
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept.

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#1987696 - 11/17/12 02:19 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Quote:
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.

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#1987719 - 11/17/12 07:30 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: schwammerl]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: schwammerl
Quote:
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

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#1987734 - 11/17/12 08:42 AM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1591
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: schwammerl
Quote:
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.


If you understand in full the wants, needs, and capacities of all players in the bargaining process, you can work towards a deal that leaves everyone better off than they would be with no deal.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1988174 - 11/18/12 01:28 PM Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: schwammerl
Quote:
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

I am sure it is something with which you are intrinsically familiar, even if you never bothered to put a "name" to it.

The idea is pretty simple. With a piano:

Bargaining: You are considering charging me "X". I want to pay a lesser value "Y". We work until we either find middle ground or we do not. In the end, what the seller loses (in price), the buyer gains (in savings). This is uni-variant, in that only one variable is considered. It is also zero-sum in that one person wins and the other loses.

Negotiating: You are selling piano "X". We bring into it tuning, regulation, repayment terms, loan/lease options, moving the piano, additional features (Dampp Chaser, etc), re-selling value, additional store credit, a bench, warranty terms, and any other number of variables you may be able to consider. This is multi-variant because there exists more than one variable. It is positive-sum because there is a chance that the buyer may "win" something that costs the seller "nothing", or may be willing to concede something of little costs that makes the seller's life easier.

Most commodity purchases do not have the option of being negotiated. Bargained, yes, but not negotiated. There typically are very few "win-win" variables. However, this poster is saying that if you can find any, you can (and should) change tactics from bargaining to negotiating.

One other key to negotiating: it is not time-bound. In other words, you can't have a one-time, short-lived experience with a seller and expect to be able to negotiate. Quite simply, you're not invested in each other's success long enough to truly equate potential gain. If you were leasing a car with an option to buy, and involving the company's loan department, now you have a longer-term situation in which negotiation can be utilized. But typical short-term and one-time commodity purchases with few selling options do not fall into this category.
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Yamaha Upright - Please help identify
by awyaks
04/19/14 01:00 AM
song i wrote. people in clubs love it
by jedplays
04/18/14 10:49 PM
Fazioli "factory tour" video.
by R_B
04/18/14 10:27 PM
Piano Science
by venice1
04/18/14 09:59 PM
MP7 vs MP11: only 6 differences?
by Marko in Boston
04/18/14 09:08 PM
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