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#1986875 - 11/14/12 10:38 PM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: SimplyBrendan
Hmmm... Thanks for your input. I haven't had problems ever really with setting the pin. My issue, after checking with the TuneLab software, was that I tended to expand my octaves a little too much aurally.
Do you know much about this TuneLab software and just how reliable it is?
I'm enjoying the software, make no mistake.


You should download Dirk's Piano Tuning software. The trial version allows you to play every single note on the piano and it finds out what stretch is optimal and plots what the piano is tuned to, against where the partials dictate you have to be. Very helpful and free. Then for not much (I guess for a professional tuner, but too much for me and my piano) you can purchase the software for all of the features.

Tunelab - I haven't figured out how to get the stretch programmed in yet.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

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#1986966 - 11/15/12 05:54 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1933
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
As far as stretch, I humbly suggest listening to the 12ths (octave + fifth). The RBI test is the M6/M10 test: F2-D3 beat the same as D3-A4 when the 3rd partial of D3 is at the same frequency as the first partial of A4. If the 12ths are pure, or close to it, the stretch is appropriate regardless of the piano. This is something I have studied.


Jeff, I'm still learning about tests, so just for clarity:

Should that not read, "F2-D3 beat the same as F2-A4"?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1986971 - 11/15/12 07:04 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Hi. Jeff.
My first call today was a concert grand that was tuned twice yesterday by a colleague of mine for a major artist, concerto with orchestra It was perfect. An exemplary tuning. Sitting nicely at 440.65. I had absolutely nothing to do, as often happens so I exhibited a modicum of tuning-like behaviour to fulfil the contract. All the M10ths and 17ths were exactly the same beat rate as the M3rds they were derived from so, remembering this thread, I aurally checked the 12ths in the treble. No audible beating there. I was about to get out my electronic box and really nitpick but thought better of it, rattled off a text to thank my colleague for once again making me a gentleman of leisure, thanked the stage crew for their forbearance (always do that) and took my leave. I've just finished a deliciously thick Arbroath smokie with a poached egg on top. A chef once taught me to stick a fork inside a half lemon while squeezing it and the juice just floods out. Life doesn't get much better.

I used to use 12th a lot myself and still do on the last few covered strings on a bright, noisy smaller piano, but only as a quick check. I used 12ths a lot on the5-6 foot models when I worked for a well known manufacturer. They had magnicifent bass and tenor regions for their size. I only used the 12th on these to be sure that I hadn't compromised it too much. The scale was such that to make the 12ths too pure across the break would be fatal to the tuning. I wouldn't fault the scale because of what it produced in quality of sound but it did take an awful lot of care in tuning across the break. I used to tune 5-6 of them a day when I was in my 20's.

I have described what I would call minimum stretch and, on an Hamboyg Steinway 9' treble, at least, it seems to amount to enough of the same thing as using 12ths. Of course, it is possible to stretch more than that but with 70-100 seasoned professional musicians listening intently and judging their own pitch from what the tuner has specified, why play fast and loose with this when other musicians are also staking their reputations on what the piano is telling them.

None of this explains what you heard on a broadcast of the Van Cliburn. Does anyone have a copy of this recording? We must all trust our perceptions, to do otherwise is crazy making. I know that I have cringed when I hear a radio on low volume and too many of the necessary harmonics are missing from what I hear to distort my perception of what I know to be perfectly good tuning because I have turned up the sound to be sure of what I was hearing. Television speakers are terrible for this, especially when I am nodding off.




Edited by rxd (11/15/12 07:29 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1986975 - 11/15/12 07:21 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: Mark R.]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4907
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
As far as stretch, I humbly suggest listening to the 12ths (octave + fifth). The RBI test is the M6/M10 test: F2-D3 beat the same as D3-A4 when the 3rd partial of D3 is at the same frequency as the first partial of A4. If the 12ths are pure, or close to it, the stretch is appropriate regardless of the piano. This is something I have studied.


Jeff, I'm still learning about tests, so just for clarity:

Should that not read, "F2-D3 beat the same as F2-A4"?


Thanks for catching my error, ah, I mean my test. I wanted to see who was paying attention. wink
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1987331 - 11/16/12 05:19 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I was just reminded, listening to someone practicing some Liszt just now. Let's not forget that there are pianists out there doing the circuit that just simply produce an ugly sound at any dynamic. Some of them winning piano competitions. I have heard it said that you would have to break a string to win a piano competition in Italy. There are some whose tone quality can make an in tune piano sound out of tune.

I have every reason to believe that FLiszt himself produced an ugly sound, blasphemer that I am. He is famous for pushing pianos beyond their limits, much to the delight of the impressionable. This is not to detract from his compositional skills.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1987365 - 11/16/12 08:39 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Those tuning machines lack soul, and tend to push you to compress your tuning, as they just don't "HEAR" the amount of openess that a given octave is providing AND the amount of acoustical return that the concert hall is allowing.

While they can show you the tinests changes due to temperature or bridge settling ON ONE STRING , they are totally unable to check a piano tuned with unisons, and that is what is heard in the end.

So if Brendan have problems with the ETD and he prefer having a tuning with more freeness, and that musicians find it more enjoyeable, I would suggest that the ETD can be used as sort of "safe guard" just to limit the extra stretch the aural tuner tend to use, to a more quiet quantity (it can help on bad days for sure)

Any tuning have to be done in overpull mode, particularely when the stretch is moderate.

I actually consider tuning as simply being VERY quiet (not easy in concert venues I admit) , and let the piano own resonance drive the interval's stretch. (on the second pass that begin to be really perceived in the 5th octave, and then no real question arise in regard of the stretch, the problem may more be to allow enough than the opposite)

Have confidence in the pin setting method (my "student" I showed how to set the pin firmly had only 1 unison mistake when he passed his exam, and the examiner banged on heck because he was expecting more notes to move)
The pin setting is so simple and so "clearly read" once you have some experience, it should not cause any problem (the main problem is due to a bad apprehension of what happens within the instrument)

Then we get used to the different problems and we learn to detect the soon :

The plate brace flex more than wanted or plate is not screwed tight
The bridge/soundboard moves more than expected (and the 5th octave fall more than wanted when the treble is tuned)
The pins are touching the plate (difficult to set)
The strings are yet new (4-5 years should be largely enough on a concert piano but the newer strings does not accept a brutal playing).

You are tuning too differently from the usual tuner, the piano need a second tuning then the second day.

When different tuners are working on the same instrument, the tuning is advantageously kept within a moderate standard, meaning, progression of 10th 17th and the like can be kept from a tuning to the next.

No doubt that ETD can help to attain that "perfection" but to have at the same time a piano in tune with itself enough is a different matter.

The "opening" of the unison is what allow the little refinements when it comes to the real final pitch perceived for each note.

The ETD tend to consider that each note is fixed in pitch, and that is not the case, the pitch impression varies depending of the unison style, in time , between the initial attack, dwell and extinction curve you have well enough pitch variations to loose even an evolved ETD

What I did not like with them is that they oblige me to wait for the pitch stabilization, while my ear have yet detected the pitch in regard of the relative note, the ETD need to hear only one tone and one string.

How can you keep your mind focused on the tuning "at large" while being obliged to play only one note a time ?

the thing that stressed me the most with the ETD is that they seemed to empeach me to use checks, jumping to an unattended note while I checked.

The huge congruence that can be felt with the best ETD tunings is finally sounding a little not natural to the music, in the end (even if of course the pianists like to have no surprise and a well evened progression)

The best tunings have a technical/theoretical part, but I believe there is a direct transmission from the musical ear of the tuner to the sound environment he is prepariring. That, when pushed to the limits, provide a really "singing" tuning (most of the trick there being based on the unisons, for what I have seen)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1987414 - 11/16/12 10:54 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: Olek]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamin


...The "opening" of the unison is what allow the little refinements when it comes to the real final pitch perceived for each note....


I am not sure what you mean exactly by this "opening" of the unison since I have heard many different explanations of it from various tuners.

I find that there is a threshold which relates to coupling with unisons and one must exceed this threshold to open the unison up. I personally don't do this and opt for clean unisons myself for several reasons. First of all, if you are trying to gain some energy from the overall tone...leave this to the pianist, they are the ones who decide how loud the note will be played.

Secondly, I have been together in groups of really good tuners and if any of them tune a unison, there seems to be a unanomous consensus that no improvement can be made on it once all the strings jump within that threshold of coupling.

Lastly, the unisons are the first thing I see go out of tune on a freshly tuned piano. this indicates that the threshold for coupling is likely very small, maybe on the order of less than a tenth of a cent (I'm guessing here). If one deliberately tunes outside this threshold to get some wanted effect, it stands to reason that the piano will sound out of tune much quicker than if the unisons are locked in tight and allowed to drift to the same effect over time.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1987427 - 11/16/12 11:31 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
hi Emmery, unisons are tuned for coupling energy in a stable position. if that imply that a string is slightly in unbalance, when seen with an ETD let's be it, but I prefer to tune them in the best tone I hear immediately, not wait for the pianist to do my job.

Time wise it is better, in my opinion, when I check a piano that have not been tuned for long, the still clean unisons are in that shape, so I suggest they fall there naturally (with a bit of luck)

But in the end that is way more a voicing question than a tuning one, most probably (again my humble opinion)

To provide enough dynamics to the pianist one may find a use for most of the energy provided at the impact. The part of tone that thickens and tone stronger is not the attack, but a tiny part of tone that can be perceived at pppp and that inflates and get stronger when more energy is trowed in.

The number of partials perceived at any range have no much to do with that, it is just an energy use question.

difficult to explain...

The threshold you talk of is larger than you believe, probably, while just the coupling of 2 strings is yet producing some kind of very very slow "beat" due to the extinction curve all kind of effects can be superposed within that space.

A very crisp and immediate tone can be useful, but provide less nuances, as a too soft tone tuned too late with mostly the tail clean.

The tuners have the problem that the initial impact on the strings is noise, mostly, so at that moment our ear is closed and in defensive mode, opening more or less soon after.

The quietness we need allows to accept the tone in a larger way and begin to tune sooner is something we work thru a quieter touch, or focusing on the sensations under the fingers, or focusing on the tuning pin, our normal reflex is to avoid listening to the attack, then it is not managed .


Edited by Kamin (11/16/12 11:43 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1987494 - 11/16/12 02:19 PM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
SimplyBrendan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 25
Loc: South Africa
Ok... Having read all you fellows say, let me ask...
If I'm to understand correctly...
Opening up a unison is to be adjusting the individual pitch of each string, much like some tune a 12 string guitar(please bear with me...) a little sharp or flat from its partner in order to give it a more full sound? This is something that the ETD won't allow due to its perfect programming I assume?
If that be the case...
As an aural tuner, I've always tried to tune the unisons pure myself, having the opinion that that is what is required. I've not tried to expand these unisons in order to produce "colour" or get something out of it. I agree that that may(or may now not ...) be the artists prerogative. Having said this, I've not been tuning at Concert level for very long... If one could even think I do... But do have a few recording studios and competent musicians that I do exclusive work for and they have never mentioned anything but good with regards my servicing and tunings of their respective pianos. ( Steinways, Yamaha C7's and various conservatory grands etc.) I don't know if this is due to South Africa's culture or lack thereof with regard to talent or international exposure.... Never the less... It intrigues me to learn more.
This week of intense "TuneLab" tunings has brought one thing to the fore for me though, the world of partials, inharmonicity and things that I, me personally, have skipped by not being introduced to.
Guys writing about partials connected to this harmonic and the thigh bone connected to the chicken wing... Sorry!!!...
This is new to me.
Please excuse my ignorance... (And I CLAIM to be a piano tuner...BAH!)
That what you obviously understand and have studied, I have taken much for granted and just tune as I was taught and go with what my "gut"(?) feels.
Pianos to me do sound different, from make to model, from day to day, from climate to climate and I adjust them with few things in mind...
1. If the piano is below pitch... Raise it!
2. If the client wants the pitch to be at a certain herz rate... Accommodate!
3. Do your utmost to have clean unisons, octaves, double octaves, tripple octaves.
4. Make sure your temperament and intervals within this temperament... Be that whatever temperament you are using... Historical or not... Be as close to proper as is instrumentally possible(taking into account all thing within the pianos limitations, strings, regulation, soundboard, voicing etc. and deciphering them if at all possible)
I'm sure there are more things that I just can't think about at this moment that influence my methodology behind what I HAD considered my way at tuning....

Then comes the TuneLab....
WOW....
Not to be completely ignorant and a complete boor at considering myself a tuner, but I had heard about partials and inharmonicity and stretch and intervals and relationships and the likes, but never considered or even dreamed about actually being able not only to SEE them on a PHASE display or the SPECTRUM display, but to one day when I'm big, to even "Partially" understand them.
My hats off to you fellows for making this a study. I only hope that one day I'll be able to " open unisons" as I like or find the " heart" of a piano...
This I only hope for.
Again, my 15 or so years of diligently plodding away at what now seems a semi- fruitless endeavor in tuning is again as new to me as when I apprenticed and learned how to clean pedal systems or packed my artisans bag in awe of what he may be heading off to...
A long winded admission of how much I know...
Thinking now, not many of my clients(maybe 350 in total...) some being the recipients of scholarships to study music by winning competitions like the Unisa Piano competitions and Hennie Joubert international Piano Competition, have complained or looked down at my competence level at all. Thankfully...!

I would dearly love to know more and use it to my advantage personally.
There must be material that I can find or could be led to?
Or is this just something that gets practiced and deliberated over, over time?
_________________________
Brendan Hamer
Simply Pianos

South Africa

www.simplypianos.co.za

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#1987496 - 11/16/12 02:25 PM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Isaac, I understand what your saying but I tend to concentrate my efforts with unisons more along the lines of long term usefulness/stability. To this end, I come to the conclusion that unless one is doing a concert tuning (perfection within a short time frame) it is best to get unisons as clean as possible and time will allow them to drift away slightly to get the same effect that you are looking for initially. Kind of like launching a rocket to the moon. Your best off aiming its trajectory to the exact center of it, so that if it wanders during its flight it still ends up nearby.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1987526 - 11/16/12 03:50 PM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
@Brendan, I cannot say how you tune but be persuaded that if your customers are happy you are doing well.

AT worst unisons that are a tad too straight anc closed will open and warm themselves because the piano will be played, so it may only be a temporary situation. (it may depend how the energy is driven from the start, but when aiming for maximum cleanness and maximum tone immediately, the evolving in time may go the good direction in my opinion)

Emmery, I am perfectly sure I aim for "clean" unison (I dont allow any beat even very slow to be noticed (particularly in the treble)

What I use most is an "energy sensor" that helps me to refine what I hear.

That way I can use what I feel thru the tuning lever, thru my fingers, my body, etc.

This gives the impression that unisons (at last) can be tuned "without listening" , because the energy is showing its quality and quantity in time in regard of your sensations of the hammer bumping on the strings. (that is amix, the ear came last, eventually)
It is also so much less tiring, and I believe I can tune unisons while listening the radio (with one ear) - not in noise, but in a quiet environment .
It is also possible , as showed me Alfredo, to focus more on the bending/twist of the tuning pin, than on the wire (as the job on the wire is done with the ears, and if you are slow enough to move the wire, you have the impression of absolute control on tone, once the twist/untwist motion of the pin is well in the body.

Tone wise it is as easy as :

Taking the energy provided by the hammer/finger (in the bass for instance light bumps of the hammer help the ear to focus on the good part of tone to work from)

have that energy rule/straighten the most thick part of the spectra the sooner possible in time.

focus on the partials,and decide how much coupling you allow for the 2nd 3d partial, then have it show up in the mix ass soon as possible.

Chase for false beats

The coupling energy, at any level, kill part of the differences in spectra (between strings) , but I believe we tend to kill more than necessary, the pitch of the partials very rarely can be coupled really for all partials plus fundamental, only on low ih Instruments as Faziolis or other with similar clear tone a little straight, tending toward 2nd partial and up more than fundamental.

The discrepancies between strings spectra is what allows the tone to be at the same time clean and stable

When tuning very slowly, the "window" of usable unison is really noticed and it is often surprising to discover how large it is. (similarly as for octaves, there is some room that allows to favor fundamental and strength of attack, or the more high partials.)
The energy taken from one goes toward the other, but a strong fundamental tend to drive the spectra , sort of adbsorbing the partials in its energy. that gives a strong but somehow "square" tone that can be useful, but tend to moan at Forte level,

SO we are anyway obliged to listen to the "tail" of the tone, if not, tuning unisons could be done very fast, as soon as the optimal energy level is noticed at the wanted moment after attack.

When I was less experimented, I noticed that listening to recordings I like helped me a lot, I had the tone in my ears and tuning with some imagination seem to sound always better than tuning in regard of an abstract scheme (unison wise, but the same can be said for 3ds, 4,5th etc..

The most important thing is to be absolutely confident in the pin manipulation, then every pin gives you some bonus and allow to cheat a bit, so in case of trouble you can use that.

Nethertheless, an identical bending/setting of each pin allows for the most strong and homogenous tone, that is why this is the primarly goal, to me... clean AND strong, and they go together, what we do in concert tuning (where the piano is regularely yet in tune when we begin) is to refresh the wire termination points when we manipulates the hammer to "warm" the tone.

Indeed an ETD would show "horrible" few tenths of cts, eventually, but, because I measured string by string the tuning of the most demanded tuner here (the one asked by the most prestigious musicians when they travel to Paris, to simplify) and I find extremes openings, so the tone is very brilliant, I know that compared with my unisons, they are really quiet and minimally opened (and I try to use the piano's own voice for its brilliancy,(sparkle) only a very little is added)

Unfortunately we are obliged to use some compromizing (as tempering and octaves stretch) if not we could allow the instrument to sing by itself all the harmonic content it have, but the justness would be unaccepted... But we can tune in a way where a note played is putting many others in motion (damped or not)

As a musician, I would admit I prefer an "inspired" tuning where the tuner follows an idea about consonance or his ears, to a "perfect" tuning following a theoretical scheme but lessening the reactions from the piano to a small part of the scale.

When tuning in high treble, we play really very fast repeatedly, as 6 times a second or more, so the energy (dissipates very fast) that raise when coupling is noticed.
the same process apply all along the keyboard, as one important part of the tone. When playing the finger may have access to that energy, that is how the pianist can manipulate the tone.
If it is not "tuned" of it it dissipate for coupling more the partials and the fundamental, the pianist have less tools at hand to manipulate the tone.

We can make a perfectly tuned piano that miss that discrete part, then the attack of the tone feels like an electrical shock if the hammers are dense, or damped,, the energy of the attack does not give the foundation for something.





Edited by Kamin (11/16/12 04:16 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1987559 - 11/16/12 05:16 PM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Isaac, I understand what your saying but I tend to concentrate my efforts with unisons more along the lines of long term usefulness/stability. it is best to get unisons as clean as possible and time will allow them to drift away slightly to get the same effect that you are looking for initially. Kind of like launching a rocket to the moon. Your best off aiming its trajectory to the exact center of it, so that if it wanders during its flight it still ends up nearby.


I trained hard to tune that way, anticipating the drift of each string, even before concerts, then I find my pin more firmly set after the piano have played.

I guess I understand what you are talking about too, and it relates to energy as well, you leave the energy in a condition where you feel that it cannot be less good in the future.

But I noticed it is possible to tune hoping for long term, what helps is the bending of the pin and the stress equilibrium between the pin and the wire .

In concert I believe we tend to leave a little extra so a too strong stroke will use it without lowering the unison audibly (one of my mentors told me that a too high strings will be less noticed than the opposite, in case the equilibrium is broke (the "node" is "untied" but the tension raise)

When I leave an unison I feel it is strong in that direction : if played strong no drift is expected, eventually a little more strong pin setting, so what I work is really the evening between the torque of the pin and the one of the wire...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1987713 - 11/17/12 06:50 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Here is a piano tuned for immediateness, that favor the attack, but the energy is like self crucnched for the sustain (I hear that more in the treble) :

http://youtu.be/_kER-kIOPQ8

When playing stronger, only the attack take the energy, the rest of the tone does not lenghten, on the contrary it sound like adbsorbed in a black hole... the piano can be in cause as well indeed


Edited by Kamin (11/17/12 07:00 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1987716 - 11/17/12 07:17 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
SimplyBrendan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 25
Loc: South Africa
This piano sounds very Bright... Harsh even maybe? Or is that just Jazz!
_________________________
Brendan Hamer
Simply Pianos

South Africa

www.simplypianos.co.za

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#1987783 - 11/17/12 11:40 AM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Jazz indeed, also that could be apiano regulated with a large drop , raise the impact tone.

That kind of tuning is adapted to the music played anyway, but if some energy was left availeable for the thickening of the tone the piano would have more dynamics in my opinion.

it may be done by tuning a few miliseconds later after the inital "crak" , my mentor showed me how the ton e semm to go along the wire at fast speed then develop in the room (while a closed tone tend to go straight up to the ceiling)

imagination indeed...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1987834 - 11/17/12 02:08 PM Re: Aural versus electronic tuning [Re: SimplyBrendan]
SimplyBrendan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 25
Loc: South Africa
LOL! Imagine!
_________________________
Brendan Hamer
Simply Pianos

South Africa

www.simplypianos.co.za

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