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#1986970 - 11/15/12 06:42 AM Chopin Sonata 2 Finale
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4834
Loc: USA
For those who have learned it, how difficult was the memorization?

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#1986973 - 11/15/12 07:10 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
That's a question that is impossible to answer in a way that will be of any use to you.

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#1986974 - 11/15/12 07:15 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: debrucey]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4834
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: debrucey
That's a question that is impossible to answer in a way that will be of any use to you.


As useless as this statement?

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#1987004 - 11/15/12 09:44 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.

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#1987011 - 11/15/12 09:56 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: debrucey]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Originally Posted By: debrucey
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.

+1

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#1987029 - 11/15/12 10:41 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: debrucey]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4834
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: debrucey
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.


True, but it's rather relative. As in, how difficult is the memorization of the finale relative to other more tonally obvious pieces? I didn't ask "how hard will it be for me to memorize this?".

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#1987048 - 11/15/12 11:43 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18153
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
For those who have learned it, how difficult was the memorization?


Speaking of memorizing : it's getting increasingly difficult to remember who you are with, now, another name change.
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#1987051 - 11/15/12 11:47 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18153
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Originally Posted By: debrucey
It's not a useless statement. Memorisation speed is an incredibly personal thing and how one person memorises a particular piece will not have any bearing on how best you are to memorise the same piece.


True, but it's rather relative. As in, how difficult is the memorization of the finale relative to other more tonally obvious pieces? I didn't ask "how hard will it be for me to memorize this?".


It's not "rather relative" at all because it still boils down to how an individual memorizes; the harmonic clues in the score that help one to memorize may be less obvious to one who memorizes by thinking in a more "scalar" manner as opposed yet again to someone whose memory is helped more by seeing patterns that others don't see or whose memory is helped by "finger memory." How can one put a quantitative value on an answer to the question?

What, by the way, is the point of the question?
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1987056 - 11/15/12 12:01 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
There are too many variables to make it relative.

Example:
-People with different musical educations memorize differently
-Ages
-Pianistic Skill and past experience memorizing
-Each brain works differently...

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#1987063 - 11/15/12 12:17 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5316
Loc: Europe
I do see what all of the above mean, but I will take a different route here...

I think that if one can actually provide a 'level of difficulty' for most rather known works (such as the RCM or ABSRM or other levelling system) and if we can agree that individuals can have different strengths and weaknesses in our playing, perhaps it's not absurd to provide a fair and simple reply to this new guy, with the older avatar, who looks familiar and posts even more familiar threads, but calls himself Joe! grin

No?
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1987068 - 11/15/12 12:30 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: Nikolas]
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 512
I find that difficult pieces where you have to look at your hands a lot are a lot easier to memorize than less difficult ones.


Edited by boo1234 (11/15/12 12:30 PM)

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#1987082 - 11/15/12 01:04 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: Nikolas]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18153
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I do see what all of the above mean, but I will take a different route here...

I think that if one can actually provide a 'level of difficulty' for most rather known works (such as the RCM or ABSRM or other levelling system) and if we can agree that individuals can have different strengths and weaknesses in our playing, perhaps it's not absurd to provide a fair and simple reply to this new guy [...]

No?


No, because I don't see it as a "fair and simple" response. The other "levelling systems" you speak of are based on overall difficulties, both technical and artistic; the question here is "how difficult to memorize." I think that puts the question in another category entirely, not covered by overall grading systems.

Grading systems, as I know them, are conventionally - although not entirely - grading pieces according to primary technical difficulties where such things as octaves, arpeggios, repeated notes, thirds, etc. (you name it!) are more or less quantifiable. I don't think that memorization is a quantifiable component, and certainly not part of grading systems.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1987096 - 11/15/12 01:31 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: BruceD]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4834
Loc: USA
Bruce, I don't see why it isn't relative. I would say it's pretty objective that the ballades are harder to memorize than say... the 4th prelude in E minor. So in other words, the ballades are harder to memorize relative to the 4th prelude. No? Why can't the same be applied to sonata 2 finale?

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#1987104 - 11/15/12 01:44 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
False...the ballades are much easier IMO because you need to put in the hours to figure out the fingerwork,and you can ingrain the patterns into your muscle memory.

Why all of the names changes..
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1987106 - 11/15/12 01:46 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: Kuanpiano]
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
False...the ballades are much easier IMO because you need to put in the hours to figure out the fingerwork,and you can ingrain the patterns into your muscle memory.



you really believe that? you really believe that memorizing any one of the ballades is "much easier" than memorizing the e minor prelude. REALLY?!
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

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#1987107 - 11/15/12 01:49 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
If I told you that I have had less difficulties memorizing,Rach 2, Chopin's 1st ballade, the Waldstein sonata, Chopin's third and fourth scherzi, the Kapustin variations, than memorizing some tiny Scriabin preludes, or a slow Brahms intermezzi, would you believe me? Cause it's true and you missed the big capital IMO in my original post.

When you work on a big piece, you have bigger issues than trying to memorize the notes, so that works itself out. I've never had to consciously put work into memorizing a large or technically challenging work.


Yes.


Edited by Kuanpiano (11/15/12 02:00 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1987114 - 11/15/12 02:07 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
Now you've changed your argument. The Chopin e minor prelude is not on the same level as brahms intermezzi or scriabin preludes. I was just wondering if you truly thought it was more difficult to memorize the prelude than any one of the ballades.

Also I recommend you not put such final words like "false" in a sentence you deem to be just your opinion.
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

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#1987118 - 11/15/12 02:23 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Well, comparing the E minor prelude to say the G sharp minor Scriabin one. Or the E major, or the G flat major (all from op.11). They're all one page, slow, roughly the same form as the Chopin. Why isn't that a fair comparison? I'll admit that the Brahms is more of a stretch...

I think saying that something is "false, IMO" is equally valid as "I think it's pretty objective that..". I was also feeling snarky because I don't usually think someone's "just wondering" if they ask rhetorical statements sounding like "u rly think that? srly bro? o rly? REALLY!?"
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1987124 - 11/15/12 02:41 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4834
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
"u rly think that? srly bro? o rly? REALLY!?"


lmao

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#1987140 - 11/15/12 03:46 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
I admit I don't know those preludes you mention off the top of my head, but knowing how closely Scriabin followed the romantic tradition in his early works I'll accept that comparison.

Although I could've expressed it in more eloquent words I still remain skeptical of your original claim.

Happy Practicing!
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

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#1987205 - 11/15/12 06:37 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: BruceD]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7913
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
For those who have learned it, how difficult was the memorization?


Speaking of memorizing : it's getting increasingly difficult to remember who you are with, now, another name change.


Fun fact I just discovered: if you have "Ignore user" placed on someone and they change their ID, their posts will still be hidden. Cool.

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#1987449 - 11/16/12 12:16 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2652
Loc: Netherlands
other than being the shortest movement of the 4, for me it is the 'easiest' for fingers/brains, memorizing wasn't the issue here, it never is now I think of it, but it took me much more time to 'do' the first 2 movements, btw it isn't atonal music at all, just have a closer look.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1988363 - 11/19/12 02:20 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
JBB_Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I was about to say "if you've practiced it enough to be able to play it, the memorization shouldn't prove any problem"...then I read the last post. Easiest movement of the four? Wow. I think it's really hard to play presto and leggiero.

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#1989888 - 11/22/12 06:49 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2652
Loc: Netherlands
It is much more difficult, for me that is, to 'project' the 1st movement, to give the 2nd mov. it's drive and melancholy, than to just render the finale, let's not discuss the marche funèbre, because may be that is the biggest problem. If a pianist is capable of performing the b-flat minor sonata, his worries should be in making it stick together as a whole, a single piece in four departments, the finale just being a formality, musically and tecnically, with 'devastating' effect of course.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1989967 - 11/23/12 03:17 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Does anybody want to mention that the Presto chases up and down IN PARALLEL HANDS? ... and that Chopin splits the giddy ride into FOUR MEASURE darts (ie. 1-4, 5-8, etc).

Going at this wild rate, we need to be reminded NOT to get rowdy ... and respect the composer’s “sotto voce e legato”.

Memorisation is easy because of identical hand patterns (one octave apart).

Only 75 measures breaking your hands ...
and then you need to pour yourself a stiff brandy and soda.

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#1990048 - 11/23/12 11:50 AM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: btb
....Memorisation is easy because of identical hand patterns (one octave apart)....

I think this is the first time that I sort of agree with btb. ha

The only reason I'm unsure is that most of the time I don't have much idea what he's talking about. grin

A couple of things about how he puts it: I wouldn't flat-out say "easy," but certainly relatively easy -- i.e. compared to many other Chopin works. And btb actually sort of understates the "easiness" with his word choice: It isn't just identical "patterns," it's identical NOTES. There's just one line to learn, and no issue about inner voices, because there aren't any. If you just know how the 'melody' goes, that's all there is -- which isn't the case when there are inner voices and different notes in the lower and upper voices.

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#1990065 - 11/23/12 12:58 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks for half-agreeing with me Mark C ... you say
"It isn't just identical "patterns," it's identical NOTES." ... but notes in turn make up NOTE PATTERNS.

kind regards, btb.

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#1990100 - 11/23/12 04:12 PM Re: Chopin Sonata 2 Finale [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: New York
Sure. But "identical patterns" can mean things that are less simple than identical notes. That's why your phrasing understated the simplicity and why this is relatively 'easy' to memorize. But no worries -- your post was way closer to how I see it than anyone else's. smile

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