Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1987511 - 11/16/12 03:10 PM PDF scores... what do you do with these?
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
I'm wondering / pondering on something...

There's a frequent mentioning of IMSLP which offers PDF files (of rather poor quality, but 100% legal and free! I love IMSLP and once upon a time I had some of my scores on it).

Rather infrequently there's the odd question about tablets, and the use of them with piano performance.

Thus my question: If you had access to a PDF files would you:
a. Print it?
b. Use it in your tablet straight to your piano?
c. Check it out for analytical and review reasons and then go and buy the normal score?
d. Anything else that might come in mind?

Reason I'm asking should be rather obvious, but none the less I should note that I do NOT have a tablet, nor I enjoy checking out scores in my computer screen: I almost always print out my PDF scores for ease of use... but that's just me. How about the rest, please?
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#1987515 - 11/16/12 03:19 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
Hi Nikolas.

I have quite a few pdf scores now. I store them on the computer. I like to read them over on the computer (laptop I don't own a tablet.) If I'm going to use one on the piano I print it off.

Staring at a screen would just hurt my eyes so I can't imagine using one.
_________________________
Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

Top
#1987516 - 11/16/12 03:19 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3543
Poor quality? I think they are pretty good, at least good enough to play from in most cases.

most tablets have much worse quality than these files. I always print them, also because I want to scribble notes on it (fingerings, dynamics, harmonic analysis)

Also tablets are really small. I don't like flipping pages while playing (or do you have 6 tablets?) and I want decent size for reading.

Usually I don't buy the normal score, only if I want a particular edition.

Occasionally I play with laptop on the piano, if I do not have a printout.
_________________________

Top
#1987517 - 11/16/12 03:20 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 857
Loc: Seattle, WA
I have a giant library of PDF scores on my tablet, and when I'm considering new pieces to learn, I'll sightread them from my tablet. Or if I want quickly to reference editorial markings on several editions, I have them easily on hand.

But when I decide seriously to work on a piece, I print it, so I can have maximum flexibility with writing on it. After I've studied it extensively and my markings are more or less complete, I'll make a new scan of my working copy back onto my tablet so I have a new PDF with all my fingerings etc. Maybe there's a program out there good enough to allow me all the flexibility and precision I want in writing on my scores without printing anything, but I haven't found it yet, and I don't really want to pay if it's expensive...
_________________________
Currently Studying: Bach - English Suite No. 5; Beethoven - Op. 27 No. 1; Chopin - Op. 27 No. 1; Chopin - 3rd Scherzo

Top
#1987521 - 11/16/12 03:33 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 557
I download a lot of stuff form IMSLP. If something seems interesting, I'll print it. If it's something that I could see myself spending a lot of time on, then I'll buy the score (unless it's out of print).
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

Top
#1987534 - 11/16/12 04:16 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
I currently print them, or more often, save them to my desktop for later use (as they're often way beyond my current skill level). I eventually might invest in a big desktop monitor to connect to my laptop for use at the piano for practicing and/or sight-reading like Phillip Sear.

Top
#1987539 - 11/16/12 04:22 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 842
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
d) on some eReaders you can download PDF files and view them that way. I do this for analyzing and AFK study but unfortunately the screen is too small to be able to perform from it.

I would like to see some day an eReader solution for sheet music with larger screens possibly in landscape format. It could solve the problem of having to turn pages and the e-ink is easier on the eyes.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

Top
#1987541 - 11/16/12 04:28 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Quote:
Rather infrequently there's the odd question about tablets, and the use of them with piano performance.


And at that point, Hugh Sung usually pops into the thread to talk about Airturn. laugh

My computer monitor is on my music desk. I almost never print out scores, or purchase them either for that matter. I don't perform with scores so there is not much reason to print them or worry about tablet sizes.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#1987553 - 11/16/12 05:10 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
Auntie Lynn Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 1106
Loc: San Francisco, CA
I LOVE THAT PLACE (INTERBANG AND UNDERLINED). I download what I need, three-hole punch and put same in a binder (yes, sports fans, a binder). I now have about 12 full to bursting. I then download the tone row using the letters of the alphabet to my Hello Kitty work book and the rest is history (BTW, last August, I landed my Dream Job)...Mwah!!

Top
#1987577 - 11/16/12 06:23 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19366
Loc: New York City
I have around 35,000 pages printed from various internet sources and maybe ten times that stored as PDF files. I see little reason to purchase music at this point in time(I used to buy music) unless one is a professional where playing anything other than the latest super edition might raise an eyebrow. Much of the music I've printed would be considered as from non standard literature, and much of it is out of print.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/16/12 06:28 PM)

Top
#1987586 - 11/16/12 06:58 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
If it is sight-reading (I do a lot of sight-reading) I read from my tablet; but if I want to dive deeper into a piece I prefer to print it out. And if I really fall in love with it, I buy the real thing. smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#1987640 - 11/16/12 10:26 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: pianoloverus]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I have around 35,000 pages printed from various internet sources and maybe ten times that stored as PDF files. I see little reason to purchase music at this point in time(I used to buy music) unless one is a professional where playing anything other than the latest super edition might raise an eyebrow. Much of the music I've printed would be considered as from non standard literature, and much of it is out of print.
Sorry, but this could mean that:
a. You're downloading illegally anything which is not out of copyright.
b. Don't care to get anything which is still in copyright.

EDIT: I mean the above as 'EITHER' one could be true, or none... Sorry if it seemed that I'm thinking you're going anything illegal: I don't.

And it does seem extra non supportive of living composers I think! wink

On what everyone else said it is as I thought it. Pretty much what I do. And I do intend to get a tablet myself, but I do consider it small for performance usage...


Edited by Nikolas (11/16/12 11:41 PM)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1987657 - 11/16/12 11:28 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Sorry, but this could mean that:
a. You're downloading illegally anything which is not out of copyright.

Nikolas, he is not downloading anything illegally. The scores he has access to on IMSLP are supposedly PD in the US. I'm also sure that he makes heavy use of Pianophilia which is very careful about posting scores which are PD. (It is UK based.)

I have a TON of stuff from both websites, but only print them out if I need them for performance, otherwise they reside on my hard drive (which is heavily backed up) in a very highly organized file for quick access.

There is also a fabulous website CDPL.org specializing in PD choral music. With my interest in Anglican choral music, there's lots of fabulous stuff which is most likely unavailable outside of British cathedral libraries.

_________________________
Jason

Top
#1987661 - 11/16/12 11:44 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Ouch.

Sorry, I edited my post. I mean that it could either mean that he's not interested, or if he's interested and yet not buying he must have other ways to find them (which could include contacting the composer, if alive, etc).

Sorry about that...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1987671 - 11/17/12 12:19 AM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
laugh laugh

Well I can only speak for myself, but there is certainly a fair amount of non-PD music I would love to examine in score, but -forgive me- why pay for it if I'm only interested in having a quick look and not trying to perform it or, worse, give it away to someone else?

That seems decent enough I should think. I have honestly purchased ALL of Messiaen's organ music (and a fair amount of the piano music), but I would just love to see the scores of some of his later, non-keyboard, works. That would be awesome in helping me appreciate a composer I absolutely adore.

Perhaps there isn't much of a solution. Beyond several 'potboilers' of Sorabji, there is simply no way I could approach his larger works without access to a score.

I know the mature operas of Wagner at least as well as anyone here, but I could never have done that without access to the scores. Cheers!
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1987692 - 11/17/12 01:56 AM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: argerichfan]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Perhaps there isn't much of a solution.
I personally think that contemporary scores, published by big publishers are rather overpriced (and some examples of that are the works of Messiaen, I'm sorry to say. Yes you get a huge amount of music, when you purchase one of his scores most often, but it's also that you don't get to perform everything, and there isn't another available option).

I think that there are ways to preview a score (EMF site has preview of every score available, though a few pages only...), and most importantly the pricing can go down considerable, considering that now we can print digitally (lazer) and thus we no longer have a need to print 1000+ items per score in order to get some decent prices!

Solutions can be found, it's just a matter of being open minded enough and flexible enough!

(And there's always the solution of digital scores, which while in danger of piracy) is still an option. And, personally (again) I hate DRM, but I'm not sure there's another solution to offering PDF files... :-/ Unless 'not caring for piracy' is an option, which for me it isn't...

EDIT: The "why pay for it" comment could be mistakenly taken the wrong way. I'm not taking it the wrong way...

But in the same vein (vain?) one should argue that 'why should one experience the look of a score, if the publishers and composers and copyright owners are not getting paid for it?' It's a double edged sword and no matter how much I like to share (personally once more) it's not viable to do that for free anymore...


Edited by Nikolas (11/17/12 02:00 AM)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1987706 - 11/17/12 05:10 AM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5936
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Thus my question: If you had access to a PDF file would you:
a. Print it?
b. Use it in your tablet straight to your piano?
c. Check it out for analytical and review reasons and then go and buy the normal score?
d. Anything else that might come in mind?
My PDF files are on my computer, reasonably well organised. I print anything I really want to play, then if it's something I'll want to keep playing I buy the score, so I suppose this is your option (c). I don't have a tablet and I can't see how I could possibly read music from one - far too small.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1987712 - 11/17/12 06:34 AM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
The vast majority of the PDFs I have are of music that is not in print, or if it is, it is very difficult to obtain. The quality is wildly variable (and I'd like to think the ones I've uploaded myself are of pretty good quality, especially if I did the engraving myself). I don't have a tablet, so I print out those things I want to play through, and perhaps actually work on. Often, I'll download a PDF out of curiosity and print just a page to try out.

Of the relatively few PDFs I have of music that is in print, it is usually for comparison against a printed copy of a different edition I already have. I have, very rarely, downloaded a PDF to help decide whether to purchase a score. Actually, that's so rare I can only think of one time that I did it (and yes, I did end up buying the score). I would rather check scores out of my library to help decide whether to purchase, and have done so.

Top
#1987718 - 11/17/12 07:22 AM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Perhaps there isn't much of a solution.
I personally think that contemporary scores, published by big publishers are rather overpriced (and some examples of that are the works of Messiaen, I'm sorry to say. Yes you get a huge amount of music, when you purchase one of his scores most often, but it's also that you don't get to perform everything, and there isn't another available option).

I think that there are ways to preview a score (EMF site has preview of every score available, though a few pages only...), and most importantly the pricing can go down considerable, considering that now we can print digitally (lazer) and thus we no longer have a need to print 1000+ items per score in order to get some decent prices!

Solutions can be found, it's just a matter of being open minded enough and flexible enough!

(And there's always the solution of digital scores, which while in danger of piracy) is still an option. And, personally (again) I hate DRM, but I'm not sure there's another solution to offering PDF files... :-/ Unless 'not caring for piracy' is an option, which for me it isn't...

EDIT: The "why pay for it" comment could be mistakenly taken the wrong way. I'm not taking it the wrong way...

But in the same vein (vain?) one should argue that 'why should one experience the look of a score, if the publishers and composers and copyright owners are not getting paid for it?' It's a double edged sword and no matter how much I like to share (personally once more) it's not viable to do that for free anymore...


At least in the USA, many scores at IMSLP can be sent directly to a one-off printing service for quite reasonable prices, and with various binding options. I haven't tried it yet to test the quality, but am keeping it in mind, in case a good test case comes up. This sort of thing may be the future of music publishing, other than the very high-end products.

I think the battle against piracy has already been lost. The only question remaining is whether there is still a market for "real" publication. I think there may be - but I also think that a composer expecting to actually make money off of new work via publication is just not very realistic anymore (educational stuff may be an exception). Instead of being a source of income, publication may be better understood as a cost of doing business, as a kind of advertising. You make money from commissions and royalties and teaching and guest lecture stints and master classes, not from the sales of your scores. That is, unless you have the kind of critical reputation that means that university libraries feel they absolutely must have your scores in their collections in order to be taken seriously, and they will pay through the nose for them. But how many composers fall into that exalted category? Not too many.

Top
#1987724 - 11/17/12 07:58 AM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Exactly wr!

Thing is that most IMSLP scores I got (and actually any other scanned scores I got) were at medium quality at best. Compared to the real thing there isn't a doubt for me that a physical score is still a better option. This is for scanned scores only, btw. The PDF scores that you and I produce can be of excellent quality!

Now, I will agree that for a composer scores should be seen as a form of advertising mostly, and I'm not too sure there's too much money to be made anymore. But still, at the same time, piracy in this business is not too dominant! You should check other industries (for example the computer games industry, that I'm part of): They are devastated by piracy!

For scores there is a very practical approach: It's already classical enough (we ar e talking about classical music) and people have been playing the piano for centuries now. This isn't about to change. Then there's the very fact that it's an active process (rather than the passive process of listening to your ipod). This is the same reason why computer games are winning over films now! And quality plays a vital part, for anyone who is even half serious about playing an instrument: Bad printing, bad binding, bad layout can kill any performance.

So, this is my great assumption: If I set the prices low enough (which is challenging enough, since you guys in the US price all scores ridiculously low and it's impossible for me to match that), will there be enough of an audience to take an interest in quality scores, quality music and quality... composers? A big bet, if you ask me, but very much worth taking as well! smile

(At the same time, it should be dead obvious that I'm very much looking into contemporary alternatives, such as ebooks for kindle and the ipad, etc). But not for everything right now! wink
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1987875 - 11/17/12 04:10 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
I basically use imslp for all those reasons you stated Nikolas. I'll print it out to read through sometimes, I'll read the PDF documents on my computer or phone while away from the piano to do some mental practice, I'll look up the score for a new piece i heard just so I see what all is really going on, and stuff like that. I use imslp a lot....
_________________________
Piano/Composition major.

Proud owner of a beautiful Yamaha C7.

Polish:
Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 104
Bach WTC book 1 no. 6.
Dello Joio Sonata no. 3

New:
Chopin op. 23
Bach WTC book 2 no. 20

Top
#1987932 - 11/17/12 07:12 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
synergy543 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 105
Hmmm....seems what I do is rather odd but extremely convenient for me. I have a rather large library of real scores yet I use a digital keyboard and have a large 30 inch computer screen in front of it. So I don't have a convenient place to put the scores (particularly larger book compilations). Thus, I scan them and use a pdf version even of real scores that I own. I find this works much faster and more convenient than using physical scores. Plus, I can make fingering annotations onto my pdfs and recall any of them very quickly.

Another reason that I do this is that my eye-sight isn't so great so I wear computer glasses that go exactly an arm's length. I do have a music stand to the side of my monitor but its a bit further and thus rather hard to read scores from. So pdf's win hands down for me. The 30 inch monitor is very nice as it will show two pages at a time and flipping pages is simply a click on the page down button. What could be easier? The only downside is that its just as easy to switch over to the internet and get distracted by reading Pianoworld. smile

Still, I prefer to purchase nicely printed physical scores. There's nothing like a nicely hand-crafted Henle Verlag and my own scans are far superior to anything I've seen on IMSLP. I also still purchase CDs because I like to read the liner notes. But like I said, it seems I'm the odd bird...


Edited by synergy543 (11/17/12 07:17 PM)

Top
#1987993 - 11/17/12 11:18 PM Re: PDF scores... what do you do with these? [Re: Nikolas]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 307
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I use a 22" monitor to display PDF scores at full size (same as paper scores), two pages at a time. I have pedals next to the three piano pedals, arranged to page forward or backward in the scores. If I have a paper score, and plan to try to learn something, I scan it to PDF and use the monitor. I can load multiple scores at the same time, and switch between pieces in a twinkling.
I can annotate the PDFs with fingering or other notes while they are displayed for playing with no difficulty.
While I am a rank beginner at playing, I don't see any reason why this system wouldn't work, even for someone who was an expert.
For studying away from the piano, I might print a copy of the PDF.


Edited by JOFlahe (11/17/12 11:41 PM)
_________________________
Jack

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Spare parts forTechnics SX-P30 (late 90s)
by T E Bekken
47 minutes 43 seconds ago
Notation Question in Ravel
by Anne H
Today at 12:52 AM
Viennese Action
by PhilipInChina
Today at 12:36 AM
Besides Evenness, Any other tips for good Trilling?
by Paul678
Today at 12:15 AM
October Piano Bar
by ladypayne
Yesterday at 11:24 PM
Who's Online
83 registered (Badinage, alfredo capurso, 21 invisible), 1235 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76384 Members
42 Forums
157906 Topics
2319066 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission