Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum A NEW KIND OF STYLE

dire tonic,

What's "bad" about what you say is that you can get people grabbing a bunch of very difficult pieces, plunking through them, and then saying "They can play them and I don't know if you don't like it because I like it and this is all subjective and NYAHNYAHNYAHIAMAWHINYBABY."

Because, really, that is what happens. They don't have to say those exact words to sound like a whiny baby, but chances are, they will sound like one.

Which is okay. I never think people shouldn't try to play hard pieces just because they want to; but it shouldn't be done with the idea that just ANYTHING is okay and peachy. There are standards; disregarding them in practice is one thing. Disregarding them in principle is another.

With all this, the idea is, you can't improve if you don't try. Having that crutch is what holds people back and they'll never really get to the level they hope to. If you think "Learn the rules before you break them" isn't a smart idea, then I'm going to guess you really haven't improved much in any area of your endeavors.

Wow.

Cathy

- not even in an itsy bitsy teenie weenie area of my endeavours?

Maybe a itsy bitsy teenie weenie area.

My point is, you shouldn't strive for never bettering yourself (whatever that may mean). And you can't improve if you never have goals or an idea of how something can be made better. Part of that is not just the subjective "anything I like is better" because people fall into the trap of playing the Winter Etude at sixteenth note = 40 mm, one-handed forever, just so they can say they "played" it.

Of course, I think this applies to everyone, including myself. It wasn't meant to be an attack on you personally. "You" as in the general you, and all that.

Of course, but that has diddly squat to do with my point which is about eschewing rules, not descent into sloth.

Like I said in my post, it's one thing to do something because you cannot vs. being able to and choosing another sound. Which is it for you?

Some tasks look to me like the vertical face of the Eiger so I don't even try. Others I might attempt then give up as it dawns on me that it will be time wasted for the level of satisfaction achieved. Then others are borderline.....but I’m not sure I've understood your question, Morodiene. I don't know what you mean by "choosing another sound".

The OP talked about playing in a new style, meaning making something sound the way they want it to rather than a more traditional approach might be - at least that is what I got from the OP. So if you are making a sound that is different on purpose, I'm all for that. But if you make it because you are not able to od otherwise, then I think perhaps you are short-changing yourself.

But doesn’t that lead to a paradox of opportunity where those who have the skills to play a piece as intended needn’t do so while those who lack the skills to play as intended can do nothing?

For the aspiring virtuoso it perhaps makes sense to do things ‘properly' in a coherent order and to be patient, but if it’s all for personal pleasure, why impose a regime? As I remember it, the sheet music industry had a profitable sideline turning out easy arrangements of most of the tricky well-known classics just for those who wanted to play for the fun of it. Even serious students must have played some of these on their way up.

In any case, whether we are deadly serious or just it in for the fun, we can still make leaps and bounds while engaging in music recreationally. Such leaps may not always be in approved directions but if they lead us to focus our minds on tasks which we deem important for ourselves I see no evidence that it matters.

This is from a self-taught perspective. I can see how it might not correspond with that of a teacher.

Well, obviously you can play things any way you wish to.

The problem with doing that is that it may tend to keep you playing things at a very comfortable level which may prevent growth as a player.

You've heard of "no pain, no gain" ?

It applies to almost anything in which there is some level of effort required in order to achieve various levels of skill.

When you play things "the way you want" or "with your style", you have basically decided to bypass the effort required to gain the skill needed to play it the way the author intended.

That is fine but it also may rob you of the joy of playing with a higher level of expertise.

If that does not matter to you ... have at it.

I'm in two places with this. I spent a lifetime playing music as I imagined it since I was untaught, though this was influenced by the "classical" music that I heard on the radio. Late in life I discovered the formal bits. Knowing that there is such a thing as meter, the general nature of Baroque vs. Romantic, that "dance form" originally had a dance to it, those things allowed me to use these elements to bring out more in the music. It was still a creative process. I also learned that opinion can also swing to a rather rigid direction. There are purists who insist that Baroque must be played in only one manner, or that tempo or dynamic and phrase markings must be adhered to, to the letter. One hears such "perfect" playing which is also devoid of life.

What I prefer (and am getting) is to understand what is beneath music and use it. That includes understanding style and periods, but not in a strict formulaic way, and definitely not just through dynamic markings.


We don't know how Music-P is playing it, or what dynamic markings s/he means. I remember that the phrase marks were discussed in the teacher forum a while back, something about them being unnecessary or getting in the way, preventing a better playing of the piece. There was also something about the student thinking about and working with the piece. But that would also be guided thinking and working. That goes full circle to the idea of knowing what is underneath it.

The OP said they wanted to change the dynamics of a Clementi sonatina to sound more like Chopin, so that is what I am addressing. It sounded to me like the OP was saying they are choosing to make the dynamics more Romantic and dramatic than perhaps a Classical sentimentality would allow. I was stating that is not a problem so long as the conscious decision was being made to do so by the pianist because of a desire to make that kind of sound, rather than say someone who ignored dynamic markings because they were too lazy to work them out.

edited to add: as a teacher, I have yet to encounter someone who is incapable of doing dynamics. It may be harder for some than others, but every student I've had is capable of them.

First problem: are the dynamics, articulations, and phrasing the ones that the composer put in there? Or are you seeing something put in by an editor, or could it even be an arrangement to make it easier for a student?

In fact, if you have a musical vision then you have become capable of fulfilling it. You will need to get the technical ability - technique - to carry out what imagine. If self-taught, you will also discover that there are musical principals beneath what you are imagining, which you have to get. All of this will go full circle toward serious and sometimes painful study. That study might actually be heavier than any preconceived traditional route.

People are talking about the student who takes shortcuts and bends to music to be able to play it effortlessly. I think that is a different thing.

Yes, of course, to all the above but I’m not in any respect advocating an easy way out, nor am I talking about what matters to me, rather I’m trying to get across a more general point about priorities.

That those who approach music recreationally are just as capable as those who approach it 'seriously' of being assiduous in their efforts but that their focus (in recreation) is oftentimes diverted to other aspects of their musicianship which they see to be important and which they are passionate to pursue. This could be true, for example, of any of the outstanding rock or jazz musicians of our time. It could also be true of any of the members of ABF who want to become ‘good at something’ other than playing a classical piece exactly as was intended.

Music consists in more than just gaining the specific skill you outline. It consists in more than one expertise.

I agree. There are many varied ways to pursue music and to become very knowledgeable and skilled with whatever you enjoy doing.

I guess this discussion revolves around your opening statement ...



I guess I would say that if you are not playing it at least close to the way the author intended, you are not really learning "IT".

You are learning something of your own creation. To be sure, you may be using the same notes, or most of them, but it is not the same piece.

So, it is all about the meaning of "learning" a particular piece. Most will consider "learning it" to mean learning to play it in the manner intended by the author. If you wish to learn a different way to play it, fine ... but you will be misleading most others if you say you are "learning" the piece or have "Learned" the piece ... when in fact, you have not.

Bottom line: We have not heard the OP play, so we don't actually know what s/he is doing. We also don't know what the OP thinks the music is calling for. It is possible that the "deviation" might actually be close to how it should be played, and the "correct version" imagined is something that is way too dry and mechanical. We don't know.

Absolutely True.

Why can't someone make a sound that is different on purpose from one he doesn't like as much as the one he imagines when he hears it (or even haphazardly discovers trying to play it as written) and still not be able to reproduce a sound he's not particularly interested in making? And who are you to judge whether a person is shortchanging themselves? Maybe they are serving themselves better than they (or any pedagogue) could any other way, by having found an occasion and perhaps the most direct path (for them!) to hearing what they need to hear and creating what they need to create?

People draw inspiration and find their muse from all sorts of arbitrary external sources. As one poet put it, a lot can depend on " a red wheel barrow glazed with rainwater beside the white chickens." Why not on a piece of music they never found themselves motivated to play as written?

Look to Morodiene's and dmd's post to see exactly what it has to do with your point.