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My Keyboards: Estonia L-190, Roland RD88, Yamaha P-80, Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, Antique Pump Organ, 1850 concertina, 3 other digital pianos ------------------------- My original piece on BandCamp: https://frankbaxtermrpianoworld.bandcamp.com/releases
Me banging out some tunes in the Estonia piano booth at the NAMM show...
End of an era. Is this the beginning of the dismantling of Steinway & Sons as we know it? I have a hard time imagining that an Asian owner really cares or even understands what the S&S building, no less S&S itself means to Americans, New Yorkers and American pianists. In addition to the iconic brand, S&S also represents our glimmer of hope that America can still manufacturer a world class product, even in New York City.
If in fact Astoria is only putting out 1,500 pianos a year, things are very dire indeed for this great institution. How long can the factory exist? Having taken the tour of the factory earlier this year and seeing the size and complication of the plant is amazing. And probably amazingly expensive to maintain, especially in Queens. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall that future viewers of "Note By Note" will view it as a quaint historical memoir, instead of a documentary on a contemporary subject.
At least we will have all the Steinway pianos out there as testament of what was, even into the 21st century. That's if any pianos remain here in the United States, as opposed to most of them eventually being gobbled up and sent overseas to China and the Pacific Rim. China is already Steinway's biggest customer. With the Chinese population growing and becoming more prosperous, the demand for Steinways in the East will continue, even with the demise of S&S as we know it. So, it may come a day when a Steinway piano in North America may become as rare as hens' teeth.
This will be a boom to the rebuilders, but probably a big blow to the popularity of piano playing, so in the end, no one winds (except maybe Samick).
So sad and there is nothing we can do to stop the eventuality.
End of an era. Is this the beginning of the dismantling of Steinway & Sons as we know it?
Hard to say. Kirkland and Messina are out. I think that might be a good thing. They said they were losing $5 million per year on the building, not sure why.
This deal of selling the band division to Messina and his crew smells, though.
Samick has a huge interest in the company. That might be a good thing, they are piano makers. Haven't they left Seiler in Germany alone since that buy out?
Reading between the lines of some of the last SEC filings, I bet Samick will end up making Bostons.
Hello everyone - There is not too much I can add at this point - other than to say that the announcement as reported by MMR is correct. Please remember that the building was sold once before - but we remained as tenants - and ultimately repurchased the building. The sky didn't fall, and the world did not come to an end. Nor will it this time, should this sale close.
We are certainly committed to the New York market, and will continue to have a major presence there.
As a 31 year Steinway & Sons employee, I can appreciate both sides of this. Steinway Hall is a facility that has been much more than a retail store, that's for sure. Yet if we step back and look at this objectively, it is not unreasonable for a company to look at all the factors involved in such a decision - then make the decision that they believe to ultimately be in the company's best interest. In fact, it would be irresponsible NOT to do so.
Lastly, and in response to the comments above that suggest this decision is indicative that Steinway is on the way out: nothing could be further from the truth. We've been around a long time - and have weathered many storms (including the very recent and literal storm). As far as whether this is the beginning of "the dismantling of Steinway & Sons": absolutely not! Our factory remains very busy, and our company continues to be profitable. the number of retail stores we now own is much higher than was the case 10 years ago. This has to do with one specific (an incredibly well known) retail location. It by no means suggests anything beyond that as to the overall future of Steinway & Sons - other than that our commitment to remain and thrive has not changed. Consider New York just for one last minute: 20 years ago, we had one major location. Today, we have four.
Our commitment to the New York retail market has grown; it has not diminished, nor will it.
I appreciate the fact that so many care about this. Thank you.
Bob Snyder Senior District Manager Steinway & Sons
Glad to hear from you Bob, and the positive information and opinion you have shared. You know of my affection for S&S, I only hope for the best for the company.
If production is in fact down to 1,500 units a year, I can not imagine how such a small production can support a huge plant such as Astoria. I understand that rebuilding and parts has to help, but still, . . . How does a factory that size, located on what is now prime real estate in New york City, stay in place? Like so many businesses, S&S's New York real estate holdings may be too value to keep. The temptation to a CFO is too much. Looks like that was the motivation for the 57th Street deal, can an Astoria deal be far behind?
China is already Steinway's biggest customer. With the Chinese population growing and becoming more prosperous, the demand for Steinways in the East will continue,
This is true but to my information these are all Hamburgs.
I think you're right Norbert, but that is a result of how historically pianos were marketed by S&S. I believe that they have always supplied the East from Hamburg. Astoria was to cover the Western Hemisphere. So, the population of old Steinways in China are probably 99% Hamburgs. That's what the Chinese know. The NY Steinway is a great instrument, not any less than a Hamburg. We can argue over the differences, but I doubt there is a pianist from anywhere in the world, including China, who wouldn't fall in love with any properly working and tuned Steinway, whether it be form NY or Germany.
China is still a developing country, with a VAST population. There are probably 100's of millions of people who will want to learn how to play a piano ten years from now, who today have no idea what a Steinway is.
FWIW. I predict that 20 years from now, the piano industry will be booming like nothing seen before in history. Most likely, it will all be happening in China and the East.
My Keyboards: Estonia L-190, Roland RD88, Yamaha P-80, Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, Antique Pump Organ, 1850 concertina, 3 other digital pianos ------------------------- My original piece on BandCamp: https://frankbaxtermrpianoworld.bandcamp.com/releases
Me banging out some tunes in the Estonia piano booth at the NAMM show...
NY Steinway is a great instrument, not any less than a Hamburg. We can argue over the differences, but I doubt there is a pianist from anywhere in the world, including China, who wouldn't fall in love with any properly working and tuned Steinway, whether it be form NY or Germany.
Not so sure of this.
I know of several local pianists who went to great length obtaining Hamburgs from Germany.
Some German symphony orchestras I know replace their Hamburgs every 2 years and there seem always keen eyes out for some of those, also very much from this continent.
This is not to say that there aren't great New Yorks out there - of course there are, but 100% "made in Germany" still carries its weight around the world.
If more of the world was exposed to NY Steinways, NY Steinways would have equal esteem with German pianos. I assure you, among the billions of Chinese, there will be plenty of devotees to NY Steinways who can gobble up the existing population of NY pianos, plus the next 100 years worth of future production, at Steinway's current production levels. How long will this take, I haven't a clue.
Here are two hypothetical questions: If Steinway was able to move their production to China, and train workers there the methods and systems used in Astoria and Hamburg, how many pianos would they sell a year? Again, just for fun, imagine Steinway transplanting the Astoria factory, lock, stock and barrel with staff to China. How long would it take to train 20,000 Chinese craftsman to make the pianos exactly like they make them in New York or Germany?
End of an era. Is this the beginning of the dismantling of Steinway & Sons as we know it? I have a hard time imagining that an Asian owner really cares or even understands what the S&S building, no less S&S itself means to Americans, New Yorkers and American pianists. In addition to the iconic brand, S&S also represents our glimmer of hope that America can still manufacturer a world class product, even in New York City.
If in fact Astoria is only putting out 1,500 pianos a year, things are very dire indeed for this great institution. How long can the factory exist? Having taken the tour of the factory earlier this year and seeing the size and complication of the plant is amazing. And probably amazingly expensive to maintain, especially in Queens. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall that future viewers of "Note By Note" will view it as a quaint historical memoir, instead of a documentary on a contemporary subject.
At least we will have all the Steinway pianos out there as testament of what was, even into the 21st century. That's if any pianos remain here in the United States, as opposed to most of them eventually being gobbled up and sent overseas to China and the Pacific Rim. China is already Steinway's biggest customer. With the Chinese population growing and becoming more prosperous, the demand for Steinways in the East will continue, even with the demise of S&S as we know it. So, it may come a day when a Steinway piano in North America may become as rare as hens' teeth.
This will be a boom to the rebuilders, but probably a big blow to the popularity of piano playing, so in the end, no one winds (except maybe Samick).
So sad and there is nothing we can do to stop the eventuality.
Completely idle speculation which seems to be totally or at least largely false based on on Bob Snyder's post.
Those familiar with Steinway's history know there have been many ups and downs with some of those difficult periods probably far worse than the present one. I don't understand why some seem so eager to be the bearers of doom.
Hello everyone - There is not too much I can add at this point - other than to say that the announcement as reported by MMR is correct. Please remember that the building was sold once before - but we remained as tenants - and ultimately repurchased the building. The sky didn't fall, and the world did not come to an end. Nor will it this time, should this sale close.
We are certainly committed to the New York market, and will continue to have a major presence there.
As a 31 year Steinway & Sons employee, I can appreciate both sides of this. Steinway Hall is a facility that has been much more than a retail store, that's for sure. Yet if we step back and look at this objectively, it is not unreasonable for a company to look at all the factors involved in such a decision - then make the decision that they believe to ultimately be in the company's best interest. In fact, it would be irresponsible NOT to do so.
Lastly, and in response to the comments above that suggest this decision is indicative that Steinway is on the way out: nothing could be further from the truth. We've been around a long time - and have weathered many storms (including the very recent and literal storm). As far as whether this is the beginning of "the dismantling of Steinway & Sons": absolutely not! Our factory remains very busy, and our company continues to be profitable. the number of retail stores we now own is much higher than was the case 10 years ago. This has to do with one specific (an incredibly well known) retail location. It by no means suggests anything beyond that as to the overall future of Steinway & Sons - other than that our commitment to remain and thrive has not changed. Consider New York just for one last minute: 20 years ago, we had one major location. Today, we have four.
Our commitment to the New York retail market has grown; it has not diminished, nor will it.
I appreciate the fact that so many care about this. Thank you.
I have spoken to a number of industry pros and what Bob says ring true. Steinway insn't going anywhere.
My guess is the the realestate value of Steinway Hall exceeded the advantages Steinway could realize staying in that location.
Piano Industry Consultant
Co-author (with Larry Fine) of Practical Piano Valuation www.jasonsmc@msn.com
Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer
Retired owned of Jasons Music Center Maryland/DC/No. VA Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.
End of an era. Is this the beginning of the dismantling of Steinway & Sons as we know it? I have a hard time imagining that an Asian owner really cares or even understands what the S&S building, no less S&S itself means to Americans, New Yorkers and American pianists. In addition to the iconic brand, S&S also represents our glimmer of hope that America can still manufacturer a world class product, even in New York City.
If in fact Astoria is only putting out 1,500 pianos a year, things are very dire indeed for this great institution. How long can the factory exist? Having taken the tour of the factory earlier this year and seeing the size and complication of the plant is amazing. And probably amazingly expensive to maintain, especially in Queens. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall that future viewers of "Note By Note" will view it as a quaint historical memoir, instead of a documentary on a contemporary subject.
At least we will have all the Steinway pianos out there as testament of what was, even into the 21st century. That's if any pianos remain here in the United States, as opposed to most of them eventually being gobbled up and sent overseas to China and the Pacific Rim. China is already Steinway's biggest customer. With the Chinese population growing and becoming more prosperous, the demand for Steinways in the East will continue, even with the demise of S&S as we know it. So, it may come a day when a Steinway piano in North America may become as rare as hens' teeth.
This will be a boom to the rebuilders, but probably a big blow to the popularity of piano playing, so in the end, no one winds (except maybe Samick).
So sad and there is nothing we can do to stop the eventuality.
Completely idle speculation which seems to be totally or at least largely false based on on Bob Snyder's post.
Those familiar with Steinway's history know there have been many ups and downs with some of those difficult periods probably far worse than the present one. I don't understand why some seem so eager to be the bearers of doom.
As the man says, "past performance is no indication of future results." The past machinations of S&S was when it was either a family owned company, or an American owned company. Times are different. S&S is controlled by a corporation with a different ethos than traditional values of American companies. Not to put Samick down (I really know little about them) but the days when S&S ran the business like a family are over. I cannot imagine that the current owners have any real commitment to New York, the United States, or American workers for that matter. Like most large businesses these days there are purely profit driven, focusing on short term profit goals, not long term goals. why would Samick keep Astoria going, if the majority of their customers are 8,000-10,000 miles away with strict import duties? Just makes total business sense to move production to China. At least at some point in the future. This is not what I hope for, but obviously you and I have no say in this, it is just seems the logical expectation from a country that is based in the Far East.
Does anyone dispute that the vast majority of pianos sales over the next 50 years will be in China and the Far East?
Can the Western Hemisphere support the Astoria factory? Can Astoria be profitable? Seems like a behemoth from an earlier era.
I believe that unless S&S is able to manufacture goods in Astoria that can be sold to a greater portion of the American buying public, it has to be on borrowed time, at best. I suggest that S&S use the Astoria factory to manufacture goods which is accessible to more American consumers. Maybe accessories for pianos (benches, music cabinets, lighting) or even market piano related paraphernalia such as artwork, collectibles, and memorabilia. I mean, they can even make artwork out of mounted action parts. Jewelry out of piano components. Things that a Steinway aficionado would purchase.
I presume that a large majority of US S&S sales are to institutions, not individuals. Steinway needs to offer American made products for the general consumer. $60,000-$130,000 sales are great, but in between those sales, there is nothing wrong with selling some lower ticket items (as they do with parts sales). Anything that does not diminish the prestige of the brand, while at the same time utilizing more of the factory and workers in Astoria.
[/quote] My guess is the the real estate value of Steinway Hall exceeded the advantages Steinway could realize staying in that location.
Couldn't the same be said of the Astoria factory? [/quote]
No.
Midtown real estate is far more expensive than Astoria Queens. By my calculations, they would need to sell 1/3 of their entire annual production out of the NYC Midtown location in order to break even. Not likely given the number of retail locations in the rest of the United States.
Whereas the location is nice and the entire process of getting registered to go in etc is "exclusive". I imagine they get nowhere near the traffic they would if they had a smaller store on 58th street like the other piano stores in NYC. They need to change their marketing from "are you qualified to spend what we are demanding?" to "we make the very best so you should your spend your piano dollars here".
End of an era. Is this the beginning of the dismantling of Steinway & Sons as we know it? I have a hard time imagining that an Asian owner really cares or even understands what the S&S building, no less S&S itself means to Americans, New Yorkers and American pianists. In addition to the iconic brand, S&S also represents our glimmer of hope that America can still manufacturer a world class product, even in New York City.
If in fact Astoria is only putting out 1,500 pianos a year, things are very dire indeed for this great institution. How long can the factory exist? Having taken the tour of the factory earlier this year and seeing the size and complication of the plant is amazing. And probably amazingly expensive to maintain, especially in Queens. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall that future viewers of "Note By Note" will view it as a quaint historical memoir, instead of a documentary on a contemporary subject.
At least we will have all the Steinway pianos out there as testament of what was, even into the 21st century. That's if any pianos remain here in the United States, as opposed to most of them eventually being gobbled up and sent overseas to China and the Pacific Rim. China is already Steinway's biggest customer. With the Chinese population growing and becoming more prosperous, the demand for Steinways in the East will continue, even with the demise of S&S as we know it. So, it may come a day when a Steinway piano in North America may become as rare as hens' teeth.
This will be a boom to the rebuilders, but probably a big blow to the popularity of piano playing, so in the end, no one winds (except maybe Samick).
So sad and there is nothing we can do to stop the eventuality.
Completely idle speculation which seems to be totally or at least largely false based on on Bob Snyder's post.
Those familiar with Steinway's history know there have been many ups and downs with some of those difficult periods probably far worse than the present one. I don't understand why some seem so eager to be the bearers of doom.
As the man says, "past performance is no indication of future results." The past machinations of S&S was when it was either a family owned company, or an American owned company. Times are different. S&S is controlled by a corporation with a different ethos than traditional values of American companies. Not to put Samick down (I really know little about them) but the days when S&S ran the business like a family are over. I cannot imagine that the current owners have any real commitment to New York, the United States, or American workers for that matter. Like most large businesses these days there are purely profit driven, focusing on short term profit goals, not long term goals. why would Samick keep Astoria going, if the majority of their customers are 8,000-10,000 miles away with strict import duties? Just makes total business sense to move production to China. At least at some point in the future. This is not what I hope for, but obviously you and I have no say in this, it is just seems the logical expectation from a country that is based in the Far East.
Does anyone dispute that the vast majority of pianos sales over the next 50 years will be in China and the Far East?
Can the Western Hemisphere support the Astoria factory? Can Astoria be profitable? Seems like a behemoth from an earlier era.
I believe that unless S&S is able to manufacture goods in Astoria that can be sold to a greater portion of the American buying public, it has to be on borrowed time, at best. I suggest that S&S use the Astoria factory to manufacture goods which is accessible to more American consumers. Maybe accessories for pianos (benches, music cabinets, lighting) or even market piano related paraphernalia such as artwork, collectibles, and memorabilia. I mean, they can even make artwork out of mounted action parts. Jewelry out of piano components. Things that a Steinway aficionado would purchase.
I presume that a large majority of US S&S sales are to institutions, not individuals. Steinway needs to offer American made products for the general consumer. $60,000-$130,000 sales are great, but in between those sales, there is nothing wrong with selling some lower ticket items (as they do with parts sales). Anything that does not diminish the prestige of the brand, while at the same time utilizing more of the factory and workers in Astoria.
I see the fact that your first lengthy post was shown to be mostly/entirely incorrect hasn't discouraged you from further idle speculation.
I don't think it would matter if Steinway was family owned, U.S. company owned, non- U.S. owned, a combination, or whatever. Whoever owns the company would want to do what they had to in order to survive and succeed. In the end the important thing to me is that we don't lose any more venerable old piano manufacturers (and we hopefully keep jobs here in the U.S.).
My Keyboards: Estonia L-190, Roland RD88, Yamaha P-80, Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, Antique Pump Organ, 1850 concertina, 3 other digital pianos ------------------------- My original piece on BandCamp: https://frankbaxtermrpianoworld.bandcamp.com/releases
Me banging out some tunes in the Estonia piano booth at the NAMM show...
End of an era. Is this the beginning of the dismantling of Steinway & Sons as we know it? I have a hard time imagining that an Asian owner really cares or even understands what the S&S building, no less S&S itself means to Americans, New Yorkers and American pianists. In addition to the iconic brand, S&S also represents our glimmer of hope that America can still manufacturer a world class product, even in New York City.
If in fact Astoria is only putting out 1,500 pianos a year, things are very dire indeed for this great institution. How long can the factory exist? Having taken the tour of the factory earlier this year and seeing the size and complication of the plant is amazing. And probably amazingly expensive to maintain, especially in Queens. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall that future viewers of "Note By Note" will view it as a quaint historical memoir, instead of a documentary on a contemporary subject.
At least we will have all the Steinway pianos out there as testament of what was, even into the 21st century. That's if any pianos remain here in the United States, as opposed to most of them eventually being gobbled up and sent overseas to China and the Pacific Rim. China is already Steinway's biggest customer. With the Chinese population growing and becoming more prosperous, the demand for Steinways in the East will continue, even with the demise of S&S as we know it. So, it may come a day when a Steinway piano in North America may become as rare as hens' teeth.
This will be a boom to the rebuilders, but probably a big blow to the popularity of piano playing, so in the end, no one winds (except maybe Samick).
So sad and there is nothing we can do to stop the eventuality.
Completely idle speculation which seems to be totally or at least largely false based on on Bob Snyder's post.
Those familiar with Steinway's history know there have been many ups and downs with some of those difficult periods probably far worse than the present one. I don't understand why some seem so eager to be the bearers of doom.
As the man says, "past performance is no indication of future results." The past machinations of S&S was when it was either a family owned company, or an American owned company. Times are different. S&S is controlled by a corporation with a different ethos than traditional values of American companies. Not to put Samick down (I really know little about them) but the days when S&S ran the business like a family are over. I cannot imagine that the current owners have any real commitment to New York, the United States, or American workers for that matter. Like most large businesses these days there are purely profit driven, focusing on short term profit goals, not long term goals. why would Samick keep Astoria going, if the majority of their customers are 8,000-10,000 miles away with strict import duties? Just makes total business sense to move production to China. At least at some point in the future. This is not what I hope for, but obviously you and I have no say in this, it is just seems the logical expectation from a country that is based in the Far East.
Does anyone dispute that the vast majority of pianos sales over the next 50 years will be in China and the Far East?
Can the Western Hemisphere support the Astoria factory? Can Astoria be profitable? Seems like a behemoth from an earlier era.
I believe that unless S&S is able to manufacture goods in Astoria that can be sold to a greater portion of the American buying public, it has to be on borrowed time, at best. I suggest that S&S use the Astoria factory to manufacture goods which is accessible to more American consumers. Maybe accessories for pianos (benches, music cabinets, lighting) or even market piano related paraphernalia such as artwork, collectibles, and memorabilia. I mean, they can even make artwork out of mounted action parts. Jewelry out of piano components. Things that a Steinway aficionado would purchase.
I presume that a large majority of US S&S sales are to institutions, not individuals. Steinway needs to offer American made products for the general consumer. $60,000-$130,000 sales are great, but in between those sales, there is nothing wrong with selling some lower ticket items (as they do with parts sales). Anything that does not diminish the prestige of the brand, while at the same time utilizing more of the factory and workers in Astoria.
I see the fact that your first lengthy post was shown to be mostly/entirely incorrect hasn't discouraged you from further idle speculation.
Right, let's slow down here . We don't even know if Steinway is leaving the hall yet, let alone any other changes. wow, talk about getting ahead of the facts....
and to my knowledge, Samick does not have controlling ownership of Steinway. Plus even if that were to happen S&S might be just fine. It does seem that Bosendorfer is somehow surviving under Yamaha's ownership and maintaining its identity and quality. The sky is not falling at this point.
