2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
58 members (Barry_Braksick, Adam Reynolds, AlkansBookcase, APianistHasNoName, Carey, brdwyguy, beeboss, Cheeeeee, 8 invisible), 1,587 guests, and 245 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#1988085 11/18/12 10:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
Anyone out there familiar with the use of Hebrew language when it comes to song lyrics?
It occurred to me that the score is typically written left to right
But Hebrew is written right to left
How does one combine lyrics and score yet allow for this situation?

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,427
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,427
Schroeder,
You deserve an award for fun random questions!


Learner
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
I have been saving them up!
Should die down a bit once I have been on a few weeks
One thing I like already are so many avid users on this forum
You get feedback quickly just like above


Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 560
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 560
Your question piqued my curiousity. As I am not yet motivated on this cold, wet Sunday morning to get off the sofa and make breakfast, I researched. Here's what I discovered and, although I make no claim to be a language scholar, it might answer your question.

Apparently there is a language process called "transliteration." Which, according to the Online Dictionary means to represent (letters or words) of one language into the corresponding characters of another alphabet. So the "words" remain the same, they aren't translated like you'd translate French into English, but changed from one alphabet system into another.

So, when the Hebrew script is transliterated into romanized characters, the direction in which the text is read is reversed. That would answer your question. And it makes my head hurt to think about reading backwards and forwards! smile

I wonder, though, if the music had been composed by an ancient Hebrew-speaking composer and was actually written down somewhere, if there was some special music notation at that time that did read right to left?

Last edited by JeanieA; 11/18/12 12:04 PM.

Collector of sheet music I can't play.

Chickering & Sons Quarter Grand (rebuilt 2021)
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780
J
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,780
I sing in the High Holy Days choir at one of my client's services, tho I'm not Jewish, it's just fun to sing. Many of those folks speak Hebrew. But in our music it's done the way JeanieA says - it's written out phonetically left to right. Which is not to say that I pronounce it right any way :\

But it's an interesting question about how it was done in the Middle Ages or earlier.

Cathy


Cathy
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
The lyrics would either be transliterated, or, for those who don't read latin letters, written syllable-by-syllable backward. I suppose Arabic would have the same problem.

.ple am ex an is Here

Although, thinking about this some more, often just the words are written as everyone knows the tune.

Last edited by ten left thumbs; 11/18/12 03:48 PM.
jotur #1988152 11/18/12 01:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by jotur
I sing in the High Holy Days choir at one of my client's services, tho I'm not Jewish, it's just fun to sing. Many of those folks speak Hebrew. But in our music it's done the way JeanieA says - it's written out phonetically left to right. Which is not to say that I pronounce it right any way :\

But it's an interesting question about how it was done in the Middle Ages or earlier.

Cathy

In the Middle Ages I would suspect this was not a major issue as 99 percent of the world was illiterate and music was more or less passed down through the generations through one on one demonstration

Last edited by Schroeder II; 11/19/12 01:35 PM.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Originally Posted by Schroeder II
Anyone out there familiar with the use of Hebrew language when it comes to song lyrics?
It occurred to me that the score is typically written left to right
But Hebrew is written right to left
How does one combine lyrics and score yet allow for this situation?


I recently sang an opera that had some Hebrew lyrics. It was written out phonetically/transliterated. The same goes for Russian or Japanese lyrics.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Schroeder II
Anyone out there familiar with the use of Hebrew language when it comes to song lyrics?
It occurred to me that the score is typically written left to right
But Hebrew is written right to left
How does one combine lyrics and score yet allow for this situation?


I recently sang an opera that had some Hebrew lyrics. It was written out phonetically/transliterated. The same goes for Russian or Japanese lyrics.


Though for Hebrew speakers, Japanese speakers and Russian speakers, this may not apply.

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 346
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 346
Japanese is written left-to-right, so there's no trouble anyway. As a Final Fantasy fan, I have some of the OST songbooks. The lyrics are in Japanese. Interestingly, it's entirely written in hiragana (phonetic alphabet), not in kanji (the thousands of different Chinese characters), making it fairly easy to read. One can learn the hiragana alphabet in one or two weeks. I have NO idea what the words mean, but I could sing along happily. Assuming I could sing.


David Lanz - Skyline Firedance Suite
Nobuo Uematsu - Final Fantasy 7 Main Theme
[Linked Image]
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
I have a vague recollection of once seeing a song written in Hebrew for speakers of that language, and I think that the music was also written backward from right to left. Or did I dream it?

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
Probably dreamt it, music in Hebrew language is written left to right.

But I would like to point out that I am a Hebrew speaker, and I did answer the question above.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,212
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,212
Russian language is also written left to right (and so is Norwegian if the question comes up). In other words, no problem.
As a singer I once performed Bernstein's Chichester Psalms. The text was transliterated and written with latin letters.
I recently composed two songs with lyrics in Tolkien's Elvish language. I considered turning the sheet 90 degrees counterclockwise.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
My comment about transliteration was not to imply that things were not read left to right for Russian and other languages, but more addressing the idea of a different alphabet.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

But I would like to point out that I am a Hebrew speaker, and I did answer the question above.

So you did. I missed it. frown
A google search shows that this question is actually discussed a lot. There is an interesting in depth article of the kinds of decisions that had to be made when the question first came up.
on the topic

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,336
Very interesting keystring. Of course the native Hebrew musical notation (te'amim) is in the biblical text anyway, but if you thought learning to read music was hard, you should try this way...

Edit: Called cantillation marks. Anyone know how to read them?

Last edited by ten left thumbs; 11/19/12 04:20 PM.

Moderated by  Bart K, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Recommended Songs for Beginners
by FreddyM - 04/16/24 03:20 PM
New DP for a 10 year old
by peelaaa - 04/16/24 02:47 PM
Estonia 1990
by Iberia - 04/16/24 11:01 AM
Very Cheap Piano?
by Tweedpipe - 04/16/24 10:13 AM
Practical Meaning of SMP
by rneedle - 04/16/24 09:57 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,392
Posts3,349,310
Members111,634
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.