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#1988443 - 11/19/12 09:04 AM Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f
Ozan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 8
Loc: Holland
Hey folks smile

A couple of months ago i was about the buy a AvantGrand N1, but something came up.
Actually, a lot of Piano dealers (Kawai mainly) kept telling me that even tough the N1 has a grand piano action, it is still a digital/recorded piano, and technology wise the price of the piano would decline heavely over the years (if one would decide to sell it as a 2nd hand piano in the future)

The thing is even tough the Yamaha N1 has a grand piano action, i like the mellow sound of the Kawai K5 & K3, and especialy the touch of the K5. (it feels different then the K3, the Kawai dealer told me that they moved from Indonesia back to Japan for manufacturing and that they changed the action for the boards.)

Anyways, the problem is, i like the K5 but i want the Silent ATX-system with it, especialy the ATX-f with the build in speakers, so i can practise anytime i want, but i cant find any (video)review or sound samples nor a playable one in the store, to hear how the build-in speakers sound coming from the K5. Any of you seen one or tried one out?
And would you still recomend the AvantGrand N1 over the K5 ATX-f mainly becausse of the grand piano action?

The price for a AvantGrand N1 (here in holland) is about 6500 euros.
The price for a K5 ATX-f with the build in speakers is around 9,500 euros.

Thanks smile

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#1988465 - 11/19/12 09:58 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
If you want a grand piano action, buy the N1, N2, or N3.

For me, the action always comes first with the sound a very close second.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the future value of any keyboard, they all depreciate. With the N1 you would probably find it easier to trade it in.

I traded in my 12 year old GranTouch only because the dealer gave me such a good price. (I bought the N3.)

This is really your call. What do you want, a grand piano action or a digital keyboard? The Yamaha N series is really a hybrid piano and apart from the Alpha Piano, is the only keyboard offered with a grand piano action.

(EDIT - my comments were made without realizing the Kawai model in question was an upright. I'd still go for the N1 for several reasons. There's nothing more irritating to me than a piano that is slightly out of tune ... and they always go out of tune. I know others here will push for the acoustic piano.)
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1988470 - 11/19/12 10:03 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Slightly off topic, but is the N1 action exactly the same as the N2/N3 action?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1988474 - 11/19/12 10:09 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
James, as far as I'm aware, the action is the same (though the N2 and N3 have transducers under the keyboard to simulate the strings vibrating through the keyboard action).

I've played the N1 and knowing what I know now I probably would have bought two N1s instead of one N3.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1988479 - 11/19/12 10:21 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Ozan, I believe the digital portion of the K-5 ATX utilises the same tone generator as the CA91/CA111 from roughly the same time period. If you listen to demos of the CA91, it should give you a reasonably good idea of how the K-5 ATX will sound in silent/digital mode.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1988480 - 11/19/12 10:22 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Dave Horne]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Cheers Dave.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1988511 - 11/19/12 11:50 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
As I understand you would also go with an upright action. May be you can try the Yamaha Nu1, which has an upright action. It is less in price and has a nice sound.

There should be a thread in the forum for silent systems compared to premium digital piano actions, but not especially for the ATX-f. Sometimes the impression was given that silent systems can not compete with premium digital piano sound systems. May be you could think about to buy for the same price an acoustic and a digital piano - the digital with a superior sensor system than available for the silent.

Would be good to hear about the ATX-f silent system from someone who is practicing it.

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#1988587 - 11/19/12 03:20 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
The Kawai has their old old old Harmonic Imaging sound engine when in Silent/Anytime mode. Not very nice in my opinion and very inferior to the sound engine in the N1. And the Kawai, being a silent upright, will have a slightly compromised action - all silent uprights have a slightly different (inferior) feel due to the altered position of the stop rail (or whatever they call it).

All those downsides apart I would still strongly consider the K5. I have a K3 and am really delighted with it. There is nothing like the experience of playing a real acoustic piano.

But with your specific requirements I don't think there's a clear-cut case for one over another - you'll have to try them (several times preferably) and see how it settles on your mind.

As far as values are concerned the Anytime facility on the Kawai costs a lot but probably adds surprisingly little to its second-hand value - so the significant extra you will spend for the silent feature is not value you will ever get back. Second-hand silent uprights only go for barely a few hundred more than equivalent non-silent versions. And like any digital the N1 will depreciate quickly, especially if/when it is replaced. Once it is a generation old its value will take a big hit.

Anyway, good luck with your choice,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1988629 - 11/19/12 05:40 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Ozan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 8
Loc: Holland
Thanks for the comments & info so far folks smile

This is going to be tougher then i tought, kind of in a dilemma here ..

Some questions arise,
If one would go for a N1 would there be a reason anytime soon to replace the N1?
I figure when one buys a digital/hybrid piano, it is usualy for the next 4 years?
Is the next AvantGrand going to be significantly beter then N1/N2/N3?
It already has a great grand piano action in it ..
More polophony? Better speakers?

On the other hand the K5 acoustic and its silent system, its usualy a buy for a longer time, it will still be more valuable then N1 in the longer run, the experience of a real accoustic and digital, but you miss out on the grand piano action, the silent system is inferior to the N1's, slight compromise on action when in silent mode, and a whopping 3000 euros more expensive ..

choices, choices ..

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#1988636 - 11/19/12 06:05 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
How about a standard K-5 for regular playing and an MP10 (or other DP) for discreet practise?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1988651 - 11/19/12 06:49 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Kawai James]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about a standard K-5 for regular playing and an MP10 (or other DP) for discreet practise?

Cheers,
James
x


That's more like it! Much better idea. How very clever of you James!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1988653 - 11/19/12 06:51 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: EssBrace]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9057
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
That's more like it! Much better idea. How very clever of you James!


Well, I'm more than just a pretty face, you know...
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1988754 - 11/19/12 11:37 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Kawai James]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3561
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
That's more like it! Much better idea. How very clever of you James!


Well, I'm more than just a pretty face, you know...


I read that you recently made Gillespie dizzy...

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#1988824 - 11/20/12 05:24 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Some questions arise,
If one would go for a N1 would there be a reason anytime soon to replace the N1?
I figure when one buys a digital/hybrid piano, it is usualy for the next 4 years?
Is the next AvantGrand going to be significantly beter then N1/N2/N3?
It already has a great grand piano action in it ..
More polophony? Better speakers?


I owned and practiced daily on the predecessor of the N series, the GranTouch (also a hybrid piano), for 12 years before I traded it in. I believe I paid something like €8,000 for it and received €3,500 when I traded it in against the purchase of the N3. That's not bad at all ... and the GranTouch still served my needs when I traded it in ... and it had only 32 note polyphony.

I would expect Yamaha to offer a hybrid with the action of a nine footer at some point. I'll probably trade in my N3 when the next generation is offered but I can afford to do that.

You really have to look at a keyboard as a tool, not an object that you will remain married to for the rest of your life.

These are just tools, they wear out, you get them fixed, at some point you decide to buy a new one or a newer model. (I'm writing this post on a five year old computer. I'm sure a newer computer would be faster and smaller ... and have more polyphony. I can live with it for now.)
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1988829 - 11/20/12 05:31 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: ando]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
That's more like it! Much better idea. How very clever of you James!


Well, I'm more than just a pretty face, you know...


I read that you recently made Gillespie dizzy...


That's odd because I heard he made Norris chuck...
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1988859 - 11/20/12 08:46 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Dave Horne]
Ozan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 8
Loc: Holland
I wish i was as rich as you guys wink
I probaly would had gone straight for the N3 and never look back.
Sadly i can afford only one piano at the moment.

I had a Yamaha U3 from the early 70's that i managed to sell for around 2000 euros.
You should see most of the people running away when i told them its from 70's smile
And i had a new K3 that i managed to sell for about 4000 euros.
With some money i saved aside i can go for a piano around 8000/9000 euros.
The N3 still has a crazy price around 15000 euros, last time i checked.
So i figured its either going to be a N1/N2 or a Kawai K5/K6 with silent system.

To be hounest i have been playing all my life on upright accoustic pianos.
So i figured why not get a N1, it has a grand piano action, it is affordable, maybe i am missing out on something all these years ..

But like i mentioned in my other post, it comes with pro's and con's (both the N1 and the K5 silent)

I read that the only real big difference (aside the speakers) between the N1 and the N2 is the vibration beneath the keys, if i would go for the N1 would that be a real issue?

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#1988876 - 11/20/12 09:18 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 VS Kawai K5-ATX-f [Re: Ozan]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I read that the only real big difference (aside the speakers) between the N1 and the N2 is the vibration beneath the keys, if i would go for the N1 would that be a real issue?

It's not an issue for me. I practice most of the time with headphones and I never miss that 'feature'.

... this added ... On the N3 the use of headphones turns off the Tactile Response System though you can turn it back on if you wish. I never do.

_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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