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#1948143 - 08/23/12 10:27 PM My Piano in Equal Temperament
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Greetings.... I have just spent a wonderful week with Ari Isaac and his lovely wife Hanna at my home here in Portland. We all had a great time. Most of it was taken up by the piano, however we did do some socializing with friends, and a sightseeing day trip up to Mt.Hood...thankfully no rumblings from the Volcano wink

This was a working/vacation of sorts for Ari, but the main purpose of Ari's visit was to work on voicing his Classical West Hammers. I also asked Ari to tune the piano in ET, which he did totally by ear. It all turned out beautifully.

His ET tuning, which I recorded on my Ipad Verituner, turned out really nice. I now have 2 custom tunings for my grand to choose from, EBVT 3 and what I will call "Isaac ET". wink The piano also has his bass strings, which are fantastic. I also picked up some tuning/hammer techniques from Ari.

I put the word out to a few local PTG folks and 2 came on Sunday afternoon to meet Ari and listen to the finished piano...they were impressed. In fact, one called back that night and wants Ari to send a few hammer samples for a possible Steinway B restoration. Ever since I first heard his hammers and Bass strings on my piano, I have been a fan, now even more so.

Here are a few recorded pieces. I used the Korg MR-1000, with a pair of RODE N5 mics. Nothing was done to the recordings except to use "Amplify" in Audacity, which basically ups the volume a bit.

Enjoy, and of course any and all comments are welcome. I apologize for the slight clicking sound from the damper tray. We did not have time to diagnose and fix it.


1. Gerald Robbins playing a Scarlatti Sonata in E, K.531 on the LX in Isaac ET. https://www.box.com/s/b4ee5c1075ff9d50cdc6

2. Gerald Robbins playing Scarlatti Sonata in A, K533 on the LX in Isaac ET https://www.box.com/s/9b18023969c5f068f853

3. John Arpin playing "As Time Goes By" on the LX, in Isaac ET (right at the end, a motorcycle goes by...Morphy's law!?! https://www.box.com/s/70ab73623e2ebdda004a

4. B.Pezzone playing "Sleepless in Seattle" on the LX in Isaac ET https://www.box.com/s/63ce746c1da219b44572

5. B.Pezzone playing "Somewhere in Time" on the LX in Isaac ET https://www.box.com/s/469f4f8a5a5a322540cd

6. Rachmaninoff playing Bach's "Sarabande" from Partita No. 4, BWV 828 https://www.box.com/s/6d34701ae7ca80d77105

7. Gerald Robbins playing Chopin's Scherzo No. 3 in C-Sharp minor, Op. 39 on the LX in Isaac ET https://www.box.com/s/ca2aa179d60f1f58f2cc


A big THANK YOU Ari for your excellent work!



Edited by Grandpianoman (08/23/12 11:40 PM)

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#1948330 - 08/24/12 08:29 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4893
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I listened to the Bach. Ahhhhh! I can understand what Bach was trying to say so much better without the distractons of an UT.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1948353 - 08/24/12 09:45 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Ari's hammers and bass strings are first rate, nice to hear it all worked out for you. Did the hammers need any ground plexiglass doping or did they get voiced down?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1948522 - 08/24/12 02:01 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Great recordings GPM, thanks very much. Listened to the Bach/Rach and the first Scarlatti, it sounds really clear, a great tuning as you'd expect from someone like Mr Isaac.

I'd be interested to know what you personally think of the tuning how it is now compared to last time it was tuned?
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1948762 - 08/24/12 10:47 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Glad you are all enjoying the recordings.

Emmery, thanks...you are correct, his hammers and bass strings are special! For me, this is a continuing journey for beautiful sounding piano music. The hammers....a few of the hammers needed some brightening, which Ari used a diluted and very thin solution of Acetone and plexiglass beads. He also voiced the hammers to their optimum, as opposed to "voicing down". I have never heard such a big round tone from the piano as I do now, it literally sings....more on my further impressions later.

Phil....thanks, you are welcome. I agree, the clarity is one aspect that is coming through beautifully. I am going to keep listening and will post my thoughts on the tuning later as well. I have a few more recordings and will post them later today or tomorrow.

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#1948875 - 08/25/12 09:31 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 374
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
I cannot wait to get my Isaac Cadenza Hammers! I'm enjoying my piano now, but I have a feeling the transformation is going to be lovely. :-)

It's nice having your piano in my living room in the meantime (via 1959 H.H.Scott tubes and E-V Patrician 800s - and of course this most modern, most excellent internet thingy).

thank you as always for sharing this.

Forrest
_________________________
Graham Fitch's Piano Pedagogy Site
(A WORTHY RESOURCE!)

--------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Beethoven Op. 78
Bach WTC 1, C# Major (#3)

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#1948905 - 08/25/12 10:39 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 739
Loc: Hong Kong
Thank you.

Enjoy the music. The harmony are so pure.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1948926 - 08/25/12 11:23 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma
Grandpianoman:


Bravo!!! What shining clarity.

What is the length of your piano?

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#1949250 - 08/26/12 07:27 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7053
Loc: France
Euh, may be the miking or my listening setup, but I dont hear the melodic part... sorry.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1949417 - 08/26/12 03:24 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Forrest, glad you are enjoying the recordings on your stereo system, and you are getting a set of Ari's hammers.

Chuck, thanks....my piano is a rebuilt M&H BB from 1927, it's basically a 7ft Grand. Original soundboard, new hammers, bass and treble strings, Tokiwa whippens/shanks, new WN&G carbon back action kit.

Kamin, perhaps it is the mic position...these are placed in the same general area as the recordings before, but slightly closer to the piano. There is a lot of sound coming from the piano now, and that may be what you are refering to. Hearing it live in my living room, I have no trouble hearing the melodic parts.

I have a few more classical and pop recordings to post later today. smile

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#1949496 - 08/26/12 06:01 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
"tune the piano in ET, which he did totally by ear"

If that's the case, it's probably actually in Reverse Well...

(Just kidding!!!)
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1949519 - 08/26/12 06:50 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Olek]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1292
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Euh, may be the miking or my listening setup, but I dont hear the melodic part... sorry.



Yeah, there's too much sound. Normally the speakers on my iMac handle music quite well. But with these soundfiles, I was getting distortion --- particularly in the area around D-54. I could tell it was good, but not how good until I went and got my earphones from the other computer. . . .

WOW!! If anyone wants to appreciate what Grandpianoman has, it is essential to listen through good equipment. And bravo to Ari for a superb voicing job.

I had installed a set of the Classical West high energy hammers a couple of years ago on a Baldwin SD-10 that was also upgraded with Wapin, Isaac Profundo bass strings and WNG shanks and flanges, so I knew what they are capable of. They are amazing hammers -- although, for most people and applications, the regular Cadenza 165 hammers will be fine.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1949523 - 08/26/12 06:53 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Here are a few more recordings in "Isaac ET". Sorry for the clicking sounds...they will be fixed shortly.


1.Scarlatti Sonata in C minor, K.11 played by Gerald Robbins on the LX -Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/531781e5e56084965235

2. Scarlatti Sonata in G. K.14 played by Gerald Robbins on the LX-Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/1157fba1fef62674c38d

3. Grieg "Butterly", Op. 43. No. 1--Played by Gerald Robbins on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/d5dcaf971fcbdc4a35f3

4. Grieg Puck, Op. 71, No. 3 Played by Gerald Robbins on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/aab72938bef974b33695

5. Moszkowski--Etincelles, Op. 36, No. 6 played by Earl Wild on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/1b340fddf5861888e4be



Pop/NewAge Selections

1. John Williams-- Princess Leia's Theme--played by B.Pezzone on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/a40117ec0876f31ab8a3

2. Theme from "Il Postino" played by B.Pezzone on the LX--Isaac ET https://www.box.com/s/b6a54c1e9aae7f077562

3. --Longings-- by M.Garson--played by M.Garson on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/58feab6692dd00098978

4. --Reflections-- by M.Garson played by M.Garson on the LX--Isaac ET https://www.box.com/s/b6bc3e9462278c33da83

5. --Admiration-- by M.Garson played by M.Garson on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/d88fcea9574fcc34ccb0



Edited by Grandpianoman (08/26/12 08:18 PM)
Edit Reason: added "Admiration" file

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#1949527 - 08/26/12 07:08 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: kpembrook]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3826
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
WOW!! If anyone wants to appreciate what Grandpianoman has, it is essential to listen through good equipment. And bravo to Ari for a superb voicing job.


Precisely! Sometimes I am completely mystified and befuddled by some of the comments regarding GP's recordings.

Thanks for sharing these, GP! Please keep 'em coming!!!

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1949539 - 08/26/12 07:44 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1167
Loc: Québec, Canada
I must say I have not listened to all of the recordings that you have posted.

Recording a piano, keeping it in tune etc... is just about the most difficult job for a sound engineer.

You do credit to your equipment and pianos. Very nice!!!!
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1949600 - 08/26/12 11:24 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: kpembrook]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Kpembrook,


You hit it right....as I had mentioned in another posting, headphones are highly recommended! A good example is "Admiration" for the bass in particular. With good headphones, it's quite something. Ari does deserve a big "BRAVO"! smile

Ari explained to me about his bass strings...."If they are designed to, they will amplify the entire piano by activating the fundamental frequency of the tenor and treble notes". That is certainly taking place here.

I think what is happening in my case, the combination of a great piano, original soundboard, Ari's bass strings and Cadenza West hammers, new action, shanks, new WN&G carbon back action kit, new Roslau treble wire, and the Wapin bridge modification...these are all contributing to what you are hearing, and of course, the tuning.

I wish I could change the tuning with a push of a button! smile It's nice to have the ability to go to different temperaments myself. I liken it to "tone" controls on a good Stereo system. For example, I have a tube headphone amp that is fantastic. Just by changing the tubes to a different manufacture, I can change the tone/color of the music.

You're welcome Andy!~

Accordeur, thank you...I don't profess to be a recording engineer, but I do know good sound, and that's a plus. It really is difficult to record an acoustic piano well. The tuning has to be so precise for every recording. The fact that I have not added any reverb, or any other modification to the sound, and have the piano sounding like that, is pretty amazing. I am surprised it sounds the way it does. If you heard it live in my living room, you would hear a kind of "3D" effect, there is so much resonance.

One other suggestion for these files...for some reason, when I listen through the box.net player, there is a slight distortion in the sound....if I download the file, then play it from my computer, that distortion is gone. You can really hear this with headphones.






Edited by Grandpianoman (08/27/12 12:22 AM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1949611 - 08/26/12 11:57 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
victor kam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 419
Loc: Malaysia
Hi GPman!
It's been quite sometime now and lately my piano sounded even richer and fuller than I can ever remember. I just have to find the courage and finances to get the Classical West hammers smile

Good voicing and tuning job by Ari!!


Edited by victor kam (08/27/12 12:08 AM)
_________________________
vk
NY Steinway D 423118 (restoration)
Yamaha CS (8ft 3in)#1198650, Ari Isaac Goldpoint hammers on WNG shanks and Profundo S bass strings.
Yamaha UX 2499771; Casio PX-3 keyboard

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#1950473 - 08/28/12 04:02 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Victor,

Great to hear that Ari's hammers are sounding better with age. smile

If you want more power, sustain and resonance, the Classical West hammers are the ticket.



I had a request to post a few 1920's Fox Trots. These were recorded yesterday...all I have done to Ari's tuning is clean up a few unisons, and changed the mic position slightly. It's interesting to hear how just changing the mic position slightly alters the sound.

The Original Piano Trio (6 hands at once!) played on the LX. These were taken from the original Ampico rolls and translated for the LX by Wayne Stahnke. Here is some information about them:

http://www.live-performance.com/opt.html


1. The Original Piano Trio 1 played on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/5951eed9e40ca4244225

2. The Original Piano Trio 2 --played on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/858e6b4ce38a1534239b

3. The Original Piano Trio 3 played on the LX--Isacc ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/41e61e95590f95a8045e

4. The Original Piano Trio 4--played on the LX--Isaac ET.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/d9b615326c370229444a





Edited by Grandpianoman (08/28/12 04:04 PM)
Edit Reason: corrections

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#1951970 - 08/31/12 09:30 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
hard2tune Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 23
If Ari ever decides to sell that Fujan, let me know.

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#1952002 - 08/31/12 10:29 AM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1617
Loc: Chicagoland
I remember hearing Theme from "Il Postino" in EBVT - it was great to be able to hear them one after another, (even though the levels didn't match) to compare the temperament differences to the music.

Just loving the sound of your instrument! Great work.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1952150 - 08/31/12 04:14 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: hard2tune]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hard2tune.....actually, that is my hammer.....I bought that way back when it first came out. Ari was trying it out and really liked it, and used it for the rest of his visit! We are trying to find another one. smile

Ron, thanks. That is one of the reasons I wanted to hear a good ET on my piano.....I wanted to hear what differences there were between an excellent ET and EBVT III. If it were as easy as pushing a button to change the tuning, I would be trying more temperaments. smile

I wish I could capture on the recordings, what I hear live in my living room. It's devilishy difficult to record a grand piano well. I certainly don't have the best setup for recording a piano, nor the best room for it. The tone/resonance is so full now, that the notes litereally just "hang" out there in the air...when you close your eyes, the sound is all around you...that's how resonant and at the same time beautiful and so even sounding the piano is now after Ari voiced and tuned it. Every note has a bell-like quality to it now, a pureness that is part of how well it projects this beautiful tone....I don't want it to stop...LOL.

You know, this has been quite a journey to arrive at this stage of the game. Many folks have been involved in this project........A big thank you to everyone who has contributed here on PW....Bill, Roy and his Wapin installation, Patrick, and PianoWorld. Way back in 2005, when I first started posting here on PW, asking newbie questions about tuning etc, a lot of folks weighed in....Del, thanks for your suggestion to replace the rosewood front duplex bars with solid brass in the last 2 treble sections, and your suggestion that if the soundboard is still good after some 80+ years, chances are it's not going to fail now. Also, Bdb, your suggestion to keep the original soundboard, agreeing with my rebuilder. I am glad I did not replace it!

A thank you to Wayne Stahnke...your LX system is fantastic! My rebuilder Randy Cox who rebuilt the whole piano, both player systems...thank you!

Ari, thank you again...you have brought all of this together with your excellent hammers and bass strings, and your expertise in voicing and tuning...what a sound!!

The journey happily continues............









Edited by Grandpianoman (08/31/12 04:59 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1963673 - 09/24/12 12:47 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
An update.......I just found out yesterday, that the PTG tech that came to visit when Ari was here, and had requested some hammer samples after hearing my piano, is going to order a full set of his hammers for a Steinway B restoration they will be starting. smile

Here is one more recording I did not post eariler...This was after Ari left, and I believe I was not happy with a few upper unisons, which I did not clean up before recording the piece, and that clicking noise. It still sounds pretty good considering.

Theme from "Love Affair" https://www.box.com/s/e947bfopqgfvqqm81839

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#1964283 - 09/25/12 02:03 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 100
Loc: Switzerland

Hi Grandpianoman

Very nice song!
Are there any downloadables scores for that "love affair"?
Thanks
Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

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#1964485 - 09/25/12 08:28 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: RonTuner]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
I remember hearing Theme from "Il Postino" in EBVT - it was great to be able to hear them one after another, (even though the levels didn't match) to compare the temperament differences to the music.

Just loving the sound of your instrument! Great work.

Ron Koval


I concur.
I've downloaded both versions and listen to them both frequently, probably more than any other solo piano piece I have to be honest.
I absolutely love the playing of that piece. thumb
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1964514 - 09/25/12 10:11 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Toni Goldener]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Tony,

Sorry, I don't really know. frown

Sparky, glad you are enjoying the piece...it's one of my favorites from Pezzone...another is Sleepless in Seattle....I like the way he lifts the dampers and lets the treble sing.

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#1988537 - 11/19/12 01:09 PM Re: My Piano in Equal Temperament [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2298
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Previously in this thread, I had not posted any Ampico rolls in ET.

Here is one of my favorites, a Porgy and Bess Medley, played here by Adam Carroll on the Ampico. smile

This is my 1927 M&H Ampico BB Grand Piano, with Ari's bass strings and Classical West hammers, which he voiced before the tuning. He tuned it in ET, no ETD. It was recorded a few days after the tuning, and I just cleaned up a few of the unisons. https://www.box.com/s/n1wvskwtw1clc4pbmnww


Edited by Grandpianoman (11/19/12 01:20 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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