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analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
When it comes to which component (s) affect the tone, I think it is partly magic. You can try three identical models of the same brand and they all sound a little different frequently. Why? One will often speak to you. Magic. (Ok, it can be the prep, the way the people at the factory were feeling when they installed this or that component--was it a hangover Monday or a delightful Tuesday, etc.) Seriously, I have no idea but it is fun to speculate isn't it?
It only seems magical but there are quantifiable reasons behind stunning sound: highly resonant soundboards, thick rims, tight tolerances, scaling, strings, hammer type and treatment, and more.
Each maker has a signature sound but there are wide variations under that umbrella.
I have an ear for the expensive ones. I wish that I didn't.
Often the biggest difference between the best pianos and all but the worst is the setup and maintenance. There are a lot of excellent pianos that lose a lot of their qualities through neglect.
I played a solo gig tonight for a post-Christmas party at a private residence. The owners had a 212 they purchased from Pierre Julia last year. Really nice ! Clarity and sustain for days. A huge bass for a 7 'er too. The action was super responsive. I was actually able to execute some passages from the classical pieces, I do on these type of gigs, easier then my D.
Sound was helped immensely by a large living room with angled walls and a cathedral type ceiling too.
The finish wasn't your typical high gloss ebony but high gloss mahogany finish. I'm not usually a fan of mahogany but the fact it sounded so good made me forget about the finish...
I play a lot of super dog pianos in even some of the most expensive homes, so this was a treat. Definitely made the night go faster and more fun...even if I was just wallpaper.
2005 NY Steinway D Yamaha AvantGrand N3X, CP88, P-515
I recently could compare side by side my own 1979 Hamburg Steinway B after it was completely refurbished (new mechanic and strings, but original soundboard) to a few Fazioli 212's at the shop that did the work on my piano. Somebody had seen my Steinway there by chance and wanted to buy it at an excellent price, for which basically I could have gotten a used year 2k F212 for exchange or a 2006 F212 that basically just hung around in the shop for a little extra cash. My 1979 Steinway B definitively was a lot better than the year 2000 Fazioli, but with the newer one it was a tough call (I resisted the temptation, though). In a sense, the Fazioli is the better — read, more modern, more technically advanced - piano. Most notable, even the 211cm Model B Steinway has a dead spot in the lower medium (i.e. the passage from the coiled to the uncoiled strings). Quiet a surprise to me for such a big piano, since I had gotten used to my (much older) Steinway D. Well, the Fazioli doesn't have that problem, it is much more even across the keyboard than the Steinway, and generally quiet a bit more powerful. But then, yes, the Steinway has a more complex, subtle, rich sound than the Fazioli, which is more straightforward, clean and clear-cut (I must say, without bragging, than my Model B is a particularly nice model and particularly well restored, better than most new models you would pick at the Hamburg Factory.)
My father had a 183cm Fazioli bought in the late 80's. It was a wonderful piano — clearly superior to any brand at that size — incredibly expressive, nuanced, with very round, singing tone, capable of an incredible dynamic range. But again, it maybe all was a little too much: that piano was build for projection, projection, projection, to be able to rival a much longer piano in a concert hall. As a result, it was quiet a nuisance to play even in a very large apartment, the sound would cause extreme reflections, echo, and thus muddle on nearly any surface. Building the most powerful piano possible at the smallest size possible doesn't seem the best of ideas to me : I actually would prefer a larger, less powerful piano, but with a richer palette, more balance (that would be a Boesendorfer....).
The description of the Fazioli as a "Super-Yamaha" many people came up with has also been my impression. Nothing wrong with that, Yamaha do make excellent pianos, and many at a far lower price ! (It could be interesting to compare the Faziolis with the new Yamaha CFX series pianos, they might be quiet similar).
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D 1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B "Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!
I play both the Fazioli F278 and the Yamaha CFX quite a lot, but they are chalk and cheese. The CFX has quite a brilliant tone when pushed, and is generally brighter than the F278, brighter also at the top than the CF-IIIS it replaces. The Fazioli has a rather more balanced sound across its whole keyboard, but is less 'colorful' than the Yamaha overall. In fact, the CFX is even more colorful, with very strong overtones at forte and beyond, than the Steinway D in many ways.
If you haven't heard the sound of the CFX, have a look at Youtube videos of HJ Lim, who's recorded the Beethoven Sonatas on the CFX.
analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".
Last edited by belsha; 01/10/1302:50 AM.
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D 1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B "Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!
In fact, the CFX is even more colorful, with very strong overtones at forte and beyond, than the Steinway D in many ways.
If you haven't heard the sound of the CFX, have a look at Youtube videos of HJ Lim, who's recorded the Beethoven Sonatas on the CFX.
Thanks for the link ! I've never heard a CFX nor played one before. i'm surprised how metallic and shrill this piano can be, and how muffled but not really singing and warm in the softer passages. I had thought that Yamaha was aiming for a more european sound with their new models, this disappointed me a little. Of course this has a lot to do with prepping, mic placement and interpretation. Actually I recall having just barely tested one of their smaller CF models, and thought it was quite harsh, rather stiff too, and think I prefer their smoother, more flexible, warmer S series pianos.
So thumbs up to Fazioli for me on this one !
You must remember that these top-end Yamaha pianos sell at the same price as Faziolis or Steinways.
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D 1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B "Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!
I have played Faziolis as far back as 25 years ago when I first saw them at Fischer pianos in Stuttgart Germany.
The ones I have played during the last few trade shows were all quite different from each other making it difficult to unify them under one single description.
While this is true for most makes, the noted variation did take me somewhat by some surprise.
Perhaps it's my hearing as one grows older...am hearing same including our own pianos too...
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".
Some people who don't play piano will not understand the difference between a $150K and a $15K piano. Even my parents think a Yamaha C-Series is equivalent to a Steinway with only price and name brand being the difference. These people seriously have to sit in front of the piano to hear the difference.
As for Fazioli's, which I can understand why people would love it, I find it too bright for my taste. The clarity is so sharp that it kind of stings my ears.
I doubt it is the clarity that is stinging your ears. It may be the loudness of the instrument, or as you say the many reverberations of the sound in a small apartment. Usually noises described as "stinging" or "irritating" come from discordance produced by partials that are not in tune (such as with the aliquots). I hope I am expressing this correctly, but the "killer octave" is well know for producing such irritations.
When Belsha talks about his father's piano causing unpleasant sounds, I'll bet you anything the father is not hearing these sounds the same way Belsha is. You lose some parts of your hearing at age 50 and progressively more as you age. You can have a real problem if you had a job that caused hearing loss when you were younger. I've told this story before on the Forum, but I went almost two years trying to get my technician to "fix" my Fazioli. It had started to sound too loud, too piercing, etc. It was causing tinnitus in my ears. Voicing, changing the hammers, and other things didn't help. Then I discovered that one of the medicines I was taking during this time caused tinnitus as a side effect for some patients. I stopped the medicine, the tinnitus went away, and the Fazioli sounded wonderful again. Considering how many medicines people take routinely these days (for cholesterol control, blood pressure, obesity, etc.), it is not surprising we get such different reactions from different people to the same instrument.
I noticed Norbert in a comment above is starting to appreciate the importance of one's hearing in determining which instruments are suitable and which are not. The unfortunate thing is that we all then extrapolate from the personal and condemn or praise the entire brand of instruments.
analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".
I would dispute this. It sounds like a denial that pieces of furniture can differ in quality and craftsmanship. And the "furniture" aspect of the piano, often called "fit and finish," is absolutely considered when assessing the piano's overall quality.
analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".
then i daresay you know nothing about the fazioli heritage or its build process, nor the many reasons (sound being only one) that someone would spend that much money on a piano.
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".
The quality, beauty, and technical aspects of the finish vary tremendously on different make pianos. Even the style of the case and plate vary although not so much if one buys the basic "contemporary" version.
