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The notes played in a C# scale are different than for a D flat scale.

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/scales/scales/majorscales.html

If you are writing a piece that has accidentals outside of the key signature, than you simply write a sharp if you are ascending the scale, or a flat when descending.

C## = D on a piano, but is this correct for every other music instrument ?

Which notes are different? As far as I can see you are hitting the same notes on the keyboard (all the blacks, plus C and F), but just thinking of them differently.

BINGO !

That is reasoning behind it.

The major scale for every key must contain all of the note names (ABCDEFG) whether or not they are sharped or flatted.

This is a little difficult to explain in writing.

Here is one way to experience it ...

Sit at the piano and play a major scale, any one except the C major scale.

As you play the scale, say the name of the note you are playing with the understanding that you must not skip any letters of the alphabet as you progress. This will cause you to have to attach the proper flat or sharp extension when naming them.

For example: The D major scale.

D ... E ... ?

Since the next key falls on a black key (between F and G) you must attach either FLAT or SHARP to the next note you name. It could be F# or Gb. Using Gb would violate the rule of not skipping any letters or the alphabet so you name it F#.

D ... E ... Gb (Wrong)

D ... E ... F# (Correct)

Simple ?

I felt guilty resurrecting such an old thread but look at all the excellent information obtained!
I like the reply above the best.
It will help a lot with scale building
Thanks so much!

OMy gosh. I never even thought about that! I feel nuts that I didn't recognize that! ha!

Guilty?!? Goodness, gracious... I'm so glad you resurrected this ancient thread. I certainly never would have seen it otherwise.

Matt's explanations re: why certain key signatures are chosen have helped make clear something that was otherwise very mysterious to me. I never knew it was so logical!!

I couldn't get Matt's explanation at all. Since the development of equal temperament major key pieces move first to the dominant (or sharp side) at the beginning and generally pass through the subdominant (or flat side) before finishing back in tonic.

Looking at Bach's C# major Preludes and Fugues, both books, the notational awkwardness becomes apparent as the F double sharps are marked, in my copy, with both a natural and a sharp when they return to F sharp and the preponderance of double sharps, unusual in my normal literature, make for a very difficult experience in reading - not that Bach is normally easy in that respect.

In Liszt's Un Sospiro the simplicity of the accidentals of D flat, by comparison, is evident. The first page (in my copy) is without accidentals - I had to double check it was Liszt! There are however only eight bars on the first page as much of the étude is written using three staves instead of the usual two.

In contrast, Chopin's Db major Waltz, Op. 64 No. 1 introduces G natural on the second note! In fact there are more G naturals in the piece than there are G flats. It emphasises that the choice of key signature is more important than notational convenience.

As an aside, I wondered if perhaps the characteristic sound of Db is preserved in C# major - it should, they're the same keys on the instrument - so I listened to Bach's C# Preludes and Fugues and Ravel's Ondine from Gaspard de la nuit, also in C# major, and thought I could detect that characteristic poetic quality of D flat.

So as an experiment I listened to more preludes and fugues and discovered that very D flat poetry in ALL the major key pairs! Ah well, back to the drawing board.

Matt's explanation is perfectly clear to me too. You are looking at it from a different angle, Richard. At this moment I'm trying to sort out what those angles are.

Hm. Matt is describing how music gets messy once you have a large number of flats or sharps. The forks in the road are the places where you can decide to switch key signatures or decide to convert flats to sharps. As an example, B major with its 5 sharps - in the key signature or in accidentals - is easy to navigate. In terms of piano keys/"equal" temperament, Cb major with its 7 flats has the same sound as B major. Here's one fork in the road. If your music has started off in a flats signature and it's been modulating like mad so that suddenly you find yourself in Cb major, do you want to wipe the slate clean and start with a new key signature in sharps? It does seem wise. Let's go for B major at this point!

Richard, you are describing the history part. Before well temperament and "equal" temperament came along, keyboard music could not modulate very far before the music sounded dreadful with wolf tones and whatnot. Other instruments were also limited - a look at Tuckwell's history of the French horn is an eye opener on that. So if music didn't modulate a lot, you didn't find yourself in the predicament that I hypothesized along Matt's lines, of the Cb major and worse. They are two sides of the same coin.

No, I still don't see it, keystring.

Whatever you're writing, if it's going to modulate them it will most likely modulate to the sharp side first. As an explanation of why a composer might choose to start with seven sharps over five flats Matt's explanation doesn't cut it for me.

If the music does get messy there's always the option of a key signature change. Un sospiro goes to F# minor (three sharps) instead of G flat minor (five flats plus two doubles), for example. Didn't Liszt go from six sharps to six flats in one of his Hungarian Rhapsodies?

I wasn't intent on describing the history, I merely mentioned it BECAUSE music didn't modulate before the advent of the mean and equal temperaments.