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#1988407 - 11/19/12 07:25 AM Some Thoery Help
MichaelN Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Australia, South Australia
Hello!

I have been playing piano recreationally for almost 10 years now, and I am starting to wonder about thoery and so-forth. Firstly, I have a few questions.

In my fiddling about with various chords, I have come across certain progressions, which I quite like, however I would like to know how these are more formally written (and they might be very common progressions too, I'm not sure.)

(For the purposes of this, I will consider the lowest C on the piano, to be C0, the next C up, C1 etc, with C3 being Middle C, and C7 being the highest note on the piano (at least on my piano). (The note 2 semi-tones above C3 would be considered D3)

For my first progression, it goes as follows. (For simplicity sake, imagine that each is held for a whole bar)

The first two notes in all progressions below, are the root 8va (root octave chords); These are played by the Left Hand (LH). The other three notes proceeding are played by the right hand (RH).
In the first chord below, the Eb1 and Eb2 are the LH, the other three are right hand.

Eb1 Eb2 G2 Bb2 Eb3
Bb0 Bb1 F2 Bb2 D3
C0 C1 G2 C3 Eb3
Bb0 Bb1 F2 Bb2 D3

What I would like to know about this, is what is meant when peopel say dominant chords, subdominant chords etc, augmented, diminished etc (I know about minor and major) and if any of those are in this progression. I also know about chord inversions, and generally can realise them. For anyone who has knowledge on this topic, insight would be greatly appreciated. Also, is this B flat minor, or E flat major? Or is it another one?

For my next progression, it is double the length, still imagine every one is held for one bar, for simplicity sake.


Bb1 Bb2 D3 F3 Bb3 (Bb major???? Maybe D minor augmented????)
F1 F2 C3 F3 A3 (F major 2nd inversion)
C2 C3 G3 C4 E4 (C major 2nd inversion)
D1 D2 Bb3 D4 F4 (Bb major 2nd inversion?? Maybe D minor augmented 2nd inversion??)
(This could also be a Bb1 Bb2 on the root octave chord)


Bb1 Bb2 D3 F3 Bb3 (Bb major???? Maybe D minor augmented????)
F1 F2 C3 F3 A3 (F major 2nd inversion)
C1 C2 G2 C3 E3 (C major 2nd inversion) (8va lower than before)
D1 D2 A2 D3 F3 (Same as before, RH is down 8va, with A rather than Bb3 (diminished chord???)



Thanks. Those are my progressions which I have (hopefully) created. I would REALLY appreciate any help which someone could give to me in relation to some chord theory.
Thanks. (Excuse my notation if it is clumsy)

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#1988437 - 11/19/12 08:58 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
It would be infinitely easier for you to go to the library and sign out a music theory textbook or buy one online.

I and many others here could explain what you want to know but it would be far more productive for you to read the first three or four chapters of any college theory textbook for your answers.

I'm not being unkind, I'm actually doing you a favor.

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#1988487 - 11/19/12 10:55 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
19 November 2012
First post welcome to the Forum ... G’day.

You’ve gone to a lot of trouble to spell out some “progressive chords” ... but if the object of the exercise is to ham a bunch of chords in a fixed finger spread, you might just be wasting your time.

This approach is largely adopted by guitarists who settle for a strumming 6 LH chords to back up the real fun of picking at the melody.

However, in the long run most of us work on memorising some classic (ie. Fur Elise, etc) and steadily build up an ever expanding repertoire ... making the diligent practice devoted to each a very necessary
firm foundation upon which to expand our keyboard adventures.

Hoping the above is seen to be positive.

Kind regards, btb

PS Looking forward to the 5-day Cricket Test in Adelaide on Thursday when our blokes will be fighting it out with you Aussies.

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#1988519 - 11/19/12 12:25 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19672
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: MichaelN
....What I would like to know about this, is what is meant when peopel say dominant chords, subdominant chords etc, augmented, diminished....

Well I think we can answer this part for him anyway....

"Dominant" means the "V" (five) chord in whatever key you're in. Like, in C major (or minor), "dominant" would be G major (or G7 if it's the dominant 7th, which means adding F to the chord). By the way it's called "five" because it's the 5th note up from C (C is counted as the first note). As you probably know, this is a very important chord in any key, really the most important chord except for the "tonic" (which is what the C chord is called in C major or minor).

"Subdominant" means the "IV" (four) chord -- i.e. the F chord if the key is C. (Sometimes the II chord is also considered a subdominant.)

"Augmented" means that the 5th note of the chord is raised a half step. Like, an augmented C major chord would have a G# instead of G.

"Diminished" is a very special chord, and very common, but probably harder to describe than the augmented. All the notes of a diminished chord are a minor-3rd apart -- like, if it starts on C, the other notes would be Eb, Gb, and A. (Those notes can be anywhere on the piano, so the intervals between the notes that you play can be greater than a minor 3rd.) It's a very special chord because of how versatile it is: it can lead to almost any other chord, by taking any of the notes either up or down to the next chord.

BTW the first progression is in Eb major. I didn't look at the others.

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#1988536 - 11/19/12 01:02 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Mark was kind enough to respond so I'll simply add one other bit. When you outlined Bb, D and F that's a Bb chord (certainly not d minor augmented). When Dave suggested you purchase a theory book he was using the philosophy of teaching a man to fish (as opposed to giving him a fish) and feeding him for life.

If you have an interest in writing songs or music then this is stuff you need to understand. What you've asked is fairly basic (okay very basic) and we simply don't have the resources nor patience to take you through an entire course of theory and harmony. Now if you have issues understanding something you'll probably come up with a more interesting question which we're probably more likely to answer. One example which you stumbles upon is why isn't D, F, A# (to spell it correctly) a d minor augmented chord?

So now I'll actually answer that question. Technically, it is! A# is an augmented fifth from D, but you'll never hear it that way. What you actually hear is a first inversion Bb chord, because the A# is enharmonically equivalent to Bb and Bb, D and F spell a Bb major chord. Put the D in the lowest voice simply inverts the harmony (first inversion). If the F was in the bass then it would be the more exotic (slightly rarer) second inversion.

Ah the joys of music theory!


Edited by Steve Chandler (11/20/12 09:01 AM)

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#1988858 - 11/20/12 08:38 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
"Ah the joys of music theory!"

An indirect way of saying the chappie doesn't know what the heck he is talking about! ...

but all the blather sounds frightfully intellectual.

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#1988877 - 11/20/12 09:21 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Some folks think that theory takes the magic away from music ... and I think it adds to its appreciation.

Theory is the common language we use to communicate with each other.
_________________________
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#1988927 - 11/20/12 11:39 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: btb]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3524
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: btb
"Ah the joys of music theory!"

An indirect way of saying the chappie doesn't know what the heck he is talking about! ...

but all the blather sounds frightfully intellectual.


If you switch off the intellect, you can't discuss anything. Music theory isn't that complicated if you understand it. Once you do, it's the tool you use to memorise vast amounts of material, to sight read efficiently, and to be able to improvise reliably over chord changes. Makes me laugh when people imply that knowing less is going to be beneficial.

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#1988932 - 11/20/12 11:51 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
It is a balance. Music theory can be a bunch of well learned symbols and formulas. You can end up being able to correctly shove notes around on the page, ace theory exams, and analyze existing music accordingly without sensing a thing. You can already have an internal understanding of the patterns in music which theory represents which gives you a first rough sense, and then get to theory to make sense of it. You might start with the theory and get the sense of it afterward, in reverse order of the previous.

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#1988949 - 11/20/12 12:46 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4859
I'd say music theory is the equivalent of grammar. You can do without grammar in everyday chat - you might even be understood some, or most of the time grin. But you won't be able to express yourself beyond the most rudimentary, when you can't even string a complete sentence properly using the right tenses, with adjectives etc in the right places, etc.

Many pop singers use only very basic harmony in their songs, often no more than 3 or 4 chords - though of course many enlist the help of an arranger to spice up the music. There's nothing to stop anyone from playing around on the piano or guitar to see which chord 'fits' the tune, but how much better if, just by hearing the tune in your head, you already know the best harmony (and alternative harmonies) to use, and can write down the music straightaway, as well as reproduce it on the piano or play the guitar along with singing the tune. And you can do that if you know the basics of music theory.

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#1988978 - 11/20/12 02:37 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
It seems the OP has stumbled upon one of the perennial discussions on Pianist Corner, whether knowing theory is beneficial. The initial responses were along the lines of we'll help a little but the subject is too big to cover in an online forum. Then btb made his pithy response to my post and we were on the track of the value of knowing music theory. I well understand that the subject can be intimidating and those who can make what they consider perfectly good music without deep knowledge of theory consider the time investment (to learn theory) to not be worth it. Yet always in these discussions it seems no one who has deep knowledge of theory shares that opinion. Whose opinion is more valid?

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#1988988 - 11/20/12 03:16 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Nvm. what I wrote is too confusing


Edited by GeorgeB (11/20/12 03:22 PM)

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#1989055 - 11/20/12 06:44 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6082
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(Sometimes the II chord is also considered a subdominant.)


By whom?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1989077 - 11/20/12 08:07 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Sometimes you will find IIb instead of IV in an authentic cadence. IIb-V-I instead of IV-V-I. In that sense it is functioning as a subdominant in that it's preparing the dominant, but you should be careful not to confuse this with the subdominant degree of the scale.

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#1989104 - 11/20/12 09:11 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: debrucey]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Sometimes you will find IIb instead of IV in an authentic cadence. IIb-V-I instead of IV-V-I. In that sense it is functioning as a subdominant in that it's preparing the dominant, but you should be careful not to confuse this with the subdominant degree of the scale.


Isn't that what's referred to (in jazz jargon at least) as a "tritone substitution?" Maybe not, the way I learned it was a bII7 chord subs out a normal V7 chord. For example Db7 - Cmaj instead of G7-Cmaj.

This is going off-topic fast! crazy

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#1989133 - 11/20/12 09:52 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: didyougethathing]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3524
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Sometimes you will find IIb instead of IV in an authentic cadence. IIb-V-I instead of IV-V-I. In that sense it is functioning as a subdominant in that it's preparing the dominant, but you should be careful not to confuse this with the subdominant degree of the scale.


Isn't that what's referred to (in jazz jargon at least) as a "tritone substitution?" Maybe not, the way I learned it was a bII7 chord subs out a normal V7 chord. For example Db7 - Cmaj instead of G7-Cmaj.

This is going off-topic fast! crazy


I think the "IIb" in this case is from a slightly obscure nomenclature used in some countries of British origin in which the inversions of a chord are described as IIa, IIb, IIc etc. So a IIb is a II chord using the bass note of the subdominant. A bII is a whole different ballgame as the chord is built on a completely different tone. I still wouldn't call "IIb" a subdominant, but you could call it a subdominant substitution or equivalent.

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#1989137 - 11/20/12 09:56 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
I have an old book with Ib, IIb etc. Ia means root position, Ib = 1st inversion (C/E), Ic = 2nd inversion (C/G). There are no capital and small letter conventions for major and minor. If music is in C major, and you see IIb then it means Dm/F and you're just supposed to know that the 2nd degree chord in a major key is minor. Not my favorite system but the first I studied.

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#1989160 - 11/20/12 11:02 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
II in C major is a D major chord.
ii in C major is a D minor chord.


using capital letters does make a difference.

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#1989162 - 11/20/12 11:09 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: ando]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Sometimes you will find IIb instead of IV in an authentic cadence. IIb-V-I instead of IV-V-I. In that sense it is functioning as a subdominant in that it's preparing the dominant, but you should be careful not to confuse this with the subdominant degree of the scale.


Isn't that what's referred to (in jazz jargon at least) as a "tritone substitution?" Maybe not, the way I learned it was a bII7 chord subs out a normal V7 chord. For example Db7 - Cmaj instead of G7-Cmaj.

This is going off-topic fast! crazy


I think the "IIb" in this case is from a slightly obscure nomenclature used in some countries of British origin in which the inversions of a chord are described as IIa, IIb, IIc etc. So a IIb is a II chord using the bass note of the subdominant. A bII is a whole different ballgame as the chord is built on a completely different tone. I still wouldn't call "IIb" a subdominant, but you could call it a subdominant substitution or equivalent.


He's not saying chord IIb is a subdominant. He is saying that chord IIb can act like a subdominant leading to V.
Example: instead of your usual IV-V-I cadence, what commonly appears is IIb-V-I... (or with the added seventh IIb7-V-I

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#1989163 - 11/20/12 11:11 PM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: GeorgeB]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3524
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: GeorgeB
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Sometimes you will find IIb instead of IV in an authentic cadence. IIb-V-I instead of IV-V-I. In that sense it is functioning as a subdominant in that it's preparing the dominant, but you should be careful not to confuse this with the subdominant degree of the scale.


Isn't that what's referred to (in jazz jargon at least) as a "tritone substitution?" Maybe not, the way I learned it was a bII7 chord subs out a normal V7 chord. For example Db7 - Cmaj instead of G7-Cmaj.

This is going off-topic fast! crazy


I think the "IIb" in this case is from a slightly obscure nomenclature used in some countries of British origin in which the inversions of a chord are described as IIa, IIb, IIc etc. So a IIb is a II chord using the bass note of the subdominant. A bII is a whole different ballgame as the chord is built on a completely different tone. I still wouldn't call "IIb" a subdominant, but you could call it a subdominant substitution or equivalent.


He's not saying chord IIb is a subdominant. He is saying that chord IIb can act like a subdominant leading to V.
Example: instead of your usual IV-V-I cadence, what commonly appears is IIb-V-I... (or with the added seventh IIb7-V-I


Read my post. I said the same thing.

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#1989187 - 11/21/12 12:50 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19672
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
By whom?

I take it you'll feel your question was answered. grin

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#1989203 - 11/21/12 02:56 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6082
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
By whom?

I take it you'll feel your question was answered. grin


Not really. An authentic cadence is just V, I, the sub-dominant is optional. I've never heard anyone refer to II as the sub-dominant before and still haven't, definitively. But that's okay if you want to think of it that way, from my perspective, it is unnecessarily confusing.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1989221 - 11/21/12 04:24 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Guys, I just skimmed the last few posts ... you make it even more confusing when you write II (for a diatonic triad built on scale degree two in major) when ii clearly indicates the flavor of the triad as being minor.

I see a II chord (in the cadence context) and I immediately think five of five or a major triad built on scale degree two.
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#1989231 - 11/21/12 04:53 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4859
IIb-V-I or IV-V-I is all old hat. Gimme Ic-V-I (or Ic-V7-I) anyday - much more 'final' grin. Mendelssohn uses it a lot in Elijah etc....

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#1989236 - 11/21/12 05:33 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
Isn't it "PREdominant" rather than SUBdominant in this discussion about II?

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#1989237 - 11/21/12 05:34 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: MichaelN]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
oh the joys of nomenclature and polychords

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#1989238 - 11/21/12 05:40 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: keystring]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: keystring
Isn't it "PREdominant" rather than SUBdominant in this discussion about II?


It depends if you're above or below the equator.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1989261 - 11/21/12 08:11 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: Dave Horne]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6082
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
indicates the flavor of


Hey, let's use musical terms to describe music, okay? laugh
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1989295 - 11/21/12 09:05 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: bennevis]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
Originally Posted By: bennevis
IIb-V-I or IV-V-I is all old hat. Gimme Ic-V-I (or Ic-V7-I) anyday - much more 'final' grin. Mendelssohn uses it a lot in Elijah etc....

one could even have IIb7-Ic-V-I for a great final cadence :p

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#1989309 - 11/21/12 09:39 AM Re: Some Thoery Help [Re: Damon]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
indicates the flavor of


Hey, let's use musical terms to describe music, okay? laugh


It's a word that is used often in a musical context, just like 'colour'.

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