Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Piano shops aren't surviving

Ouch. I would think not. Half of the sales gone is huge.

One thing for sure - the piano is not going away, no matter how many digital pianos are made and sold. It is a unique and amazing instrument. There is nothing else like it.

Mychal

You would think not? Well, think again.

It was much worse there for a while. Things have recovered from the worst!

As for more secular trends - Upright acoustic piano sales are down over 90% from the mid-70s peak years.

Any mystery why so many "shops" have disappeared?

And yes - they will not go away entirely. There will be enough to serve the market.

That is a very nice story. I am sure you can understand, however, that a full-fledged retail dealer would have to sell roughly 1,000 of those $800 pianos per annum to stay in business.

Which is not very realistic.

But at least it provides steady sales volume and some much-needed cash flow I am sure.

Don't know what the "Chinese models up the road" are but would like to see how the "spit and polish" oldies would be a match, let alone can outperform a new Ritmüller, Brodmann, Hailun or other top Chinese piano.

It's exactly those statements which show how grossly misunderstood/ misjudged the situation out in the market really is today.

Norbert

Allans just went bankrupt here. It had been around for over 100 years. Although I didn't buy much from them, I was sad because I liked to have a look when I went to Sydney.

I don't believe I suggested that these few stores LIVE on the $800 pianos. They also sell $80,000 models. The point of the comment was to highlight the fact that as we sink further into a cash-strapped economy, being able to at least offer something cheaper than the cheapest and baddest new piano is essential. The same people who might be thrilled to buy one of these today, and get good service with it, will come back tomorrow and buy sheet music. The day after, they'll come back and buy a $4k piano. The day after that they'll come back and buy a $20k model, all being equal. Try going into a 'standard' piano store and asking to see their $1k pianos and see how far you get. If you don't meet BOTH ends of the market, you're doomed. And the bottom end is, at present, very bottom. I happen to know that one such store owner considers these very cheap pianos 'risk management', and is prepared to wear the costs associated (he makes a very modest profit on these, obviously) because it builds loyalty and keeps the till ticking over.

These 'oldies' are between 40 and 60 years old, and they're always the better makes and individual examples. The management are very selective about which trade-ins they 'recycle', and all are serviced and prepped properly. Yes, some ARE better than the cheapest entry level Asian uprights. Not all, but some are.

I don't think there's any misunderstanding here. You either adapt to tighter purse strings or die. Not rocket science

I understand - they offer a broad range of products in every price category.

However your statement highlighted in red is where we disagree. I am highly suspicious of this scenario.

One needn't cater to all ends of the market to succeed. That is a myth. One can specialize. And that is more likely to be a successful strategy than to try to be all things to all people.

Of course, if one follows this strategy the entire business model must be in sync with it.

I know of a store near me that proudly sells pianos for as little as $100. In fact the initial visit I made to his establishment a couple of years ago, he had 3 such gems displayed out front on the sidewalk. "What is the point?" I asked myself. They were essentially junk.

At any rate, you and I are armchair experts.

Good to get your perspective on things.

that's the thing though, these people arent selling junk. their cheapest are all sound instruments which have at least another decade or so in them. as for being all things to all people - it's often these outfits that survive, when specialists don't. the difficulty with specialisation in a depressed market is that if your niche gets tight, you've had it. nowhere to go. applies equally to other specialist (aka, high end) retailers. they're dropping like flies here.

that's the thing though, these people arent selling junk. their cheapest are all sound instruments which have at least another decade or so in them. as for being all things to all people - it's often these outfits that survive, when specialists don't. the difficulty with specialisation in a depressed market is that if your niche gets tight, you've had it. nowhere to go. applies equally to other specialist (aka, high end) retailers. they're dropping like flies here.

Oops! I didn't express myself very clearly. I'm not disputing your numbers at all - that's why I said ouch.


You said:

And that's why I said "I would think not." I agree with you. There is no way the same number of dealers could survive such a drastic drop in sales.

Mychal

tone:

The markets are very different in different regions and while some of what you say may be true for some, it ain't for many others.

Here on the Canadian Westcoast, one beautiful old piano after the other hits the dump, nobody wants them and nobody can sell them. Just today we turned down a free Heintzman, Canada's most coveted brand ever.

When 90% of the customer base is oriental, an already 5 years old piano is considered "old" becoming often another addition to dozens and dozens of similar pianos listed on Craigslist.

The way I see the future at least for us, is trying not to serve the entire market "at all cost" but concentrate on those pianos which hopefully still make a difference.

Luckily those exist and buyers are increasingly becoming aware what they might be of where to find them.

It's neither "all good" nor "all bad" out there.

A challenge - yes - but opportunity also.

For both buyers - and sellers.

Norbert

that might be the difference. the customer base here is probably less than 50% are of Asian extraction. actually, now that I think about it, what's with that?

Its to do with tiger parents and racism.

Asian parents like mine FORCE their children to learn an instrument. So they are not wasting their time from ther point of view.

So while other children were outside playing games and developing social skills. Asian children were inside being forced to become prodigies. Practice until their fingers bleed! I kid you not. My sister was such a prodigy. Level 8 before she was a teen. Sometimes it works out, like you see on youtube. Often it does not.

She abandoned it though as she had no interest in it.

Racism is because Asian parents only like violins (and similar instruments) and pianos. No other instrument will do.

You go to a music shop in Asia and it will be mostly be violins and pianos. Very little space for brass or guitars. Other instruments are considered low class. Thus are ignored by lots of asian parents.

Just look at youtube. You'll find a LOT of masked guitar/bass players who are masked to keep their identities secret from their parents!

I guess my mom was an Italian tiger mom.

We're down to only 3 piano shops in Albuquerque. Several have gone out of business in the last 5 to 6 years, including the Steinway dealer. Furtwrangler is probably right, that 3 is the number that Albuquerque can support, but it does limit a buyer's selection dramatically.

I also think that the acoustic piano market has changed dramatically for reasons beside the downturn in the economy. Young keyboard players may love, use, and buy an acoustic, but they love digitals, stage pianos, synthesizers, midi controllers, and DAWs. Digital cannot replace the sound or feel of a gorgeous acoustic, but it's dramatically improved over the last 10 years.

People are downsizing their dwellings to be closer to the city, work, theater, shops, and restaurants so they have less room for a large acoustic grand. Also, when people entertain, they typically don't spend time playing or listening to the piano. Fortunately, my friends are patient and indulge my delusions. I can't remember the last time I went to someone's house and they had us listen to their child prodigy mangle Fur Elise or any other piano piece. Instead I find myself listening politely to the blow-by-blow details of their wunderkind's soccer/softball/volleyball/football games. (I'd trade that in a heartbeat for a mangled piece from Chopin or Beethoven). With the economic, living, and cultural changes, I really hope that piano shops can find their loyal customers and stay open.

Maybe there is more to it than just a bad economy. My perspective as a buyer is a little different.

I went piano shopping recently, with a substantial checkbook in hand ready to pay cash for a new acoustic piano, and found the experience miserable. From poor showroom acoustical properties where every piano sounded bad, to a "prestige shop" where the most expensive new pianos were in poor condition, to salesman that spent their time telling wild stories to tear down competitive brands, to the car-dealer selling process everywhere, the experience was awful. I'm sure there are old-school buyers around that think it's just part of the charm and fun of buying a piano, but for someone like me it was a train-wreck that I walked away from. Simply not worth the trouble. Maybe it's just a bad economy, but maybe buyers expectations are also changing.

Word.

I'm having the exact same experience. One dealer I want to try their pianos but they aren't prepped or tuned at all, it's really pathetic. Another dealer has their noses so high in the air that some customers just walk out of the door. I felt really uncomfortable there. Not surprisingly they've had to close one of their two shops. A third store has workers that are just clueless.

The Yamaha (plus other models) store is doing business like crazy. It helps that there are a lot of Yamaha-loving Asians in town. However it's more than that - they're nice and helpful. One of their two workers is a tech that always has every piano sounding and feeling great.

Well, this unfortunately is all part of the weeding out process, isn't it?

Some of those dealers apparently need to disappear.

And if they continue in the current manner of dealing with customers, they will.

I guess in the "good old days" dealers such as you have described (and I know who some of them are - personally) could stay in business because business was good enough to allow this kind of stuff.

Times have changed.

The recession surely hasn't helped matters, but the piano industry is probably hurting more from other reasons:

1. The modern piano has been around in this country for over 100 years, so there is a huge excess of supply (see #2). It doesn't help that the piano plays a much less prominent role in American life than it once did (see #4).

2. Craigslist, eBay, PianoMart, etc. compete with dealers in multiple ways. People who want to sell pianos don't need a middle man anymore, and save the 40%+ commission they'd have to pay for consigning. Buyers who are economically savvy, or simply can't afford a new instrument, buy these pianos because they are often cheaper than the dealer, especially since they often don't pay sales tax. If people feel like there is no benefit to paying more, they won't (see #7)

3. Many piano dealers have been complacent and were too slow to adapt to new market rules, or ignored them completely (see #7).

4. America has failed to prioritize education in the arts in public schools.

5. The classical music scene, for a long time, intimidated or turned off would-be music lovers by being snooty and overly intellectual. The "new music" scene has stagnated for decades due to people like John Cage, and the serialist movt, taking a dump on the compositional process. Normal people don't understand or enjoy this stuff. Heck, most music majors don't, either! At the same time, how often can you program Beethoven 5 before people get tired of it?

6. People think their 80 year old George Steck grand is a valuable heirloom, and is in mint condition, despite not having seen as much as a tuning in 25 years (see #1).


7. Dealers who are honest, passionate about their products (and music), have exceptional customer service, are business savvy, and engage their community are likely to remain successful.