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#1990028 - 11/23/12 10:48 AM Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Well, imagine my surprise this morning when I discovered that an old recording I made of my son playing the first movement of Mozart's K333 is pulled off of youtube. EMI apparently thinks it's actually Daniel Barenboim. What idiots.

Actually, the video is still available in South Sudan and North Korea, but nowhere else. grin

I filed the usual dispute. If I have to, I'll bombard EMI with email directly. I'm getting good at this.
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1990043 - 11/23/12 11:43 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7302
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Ask them for royalties. No, demand royalties.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1990046 - 11/23/12 11:49 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Scotland
Aren't you just a teensy weensy bit proud?
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www.justfingers.co.uk
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#1990056 - 11/23/12 12:37 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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I am, but not for this reason! The matching filters they use are pretty crude. It's amusing to know that the filter couldn't distinguish the difference between a fourteen year old with 5.5 years of training and Daniel Barenboim. Usually the companies back off once I can get an actual person to look at the video in question.
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1990067 - 11/23/12 01:02 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Oh, geez, I just looked at the rest of our videos. The geniuses at EMI have claimed that my son's version of the Pathetique Rondo is actually Samson Francois.

Let me say this to them clearly and succinctly ...



Dear EMI,

Are you a bunch of boneheaded idiots? A twelve year old's playing of the Pathetique is NOT Samson Francois. Why don't you expend the fifteen seconds it would take to preview the video? I mean that; fifteen seconds is all it would take to reveal that a twelve year old with all of four years on the bench was providing this music. Perhaps no one in EMI can tell the difference. Yeah, that's the ticket. Guys, hire someone who has actually heard some classical music. Don't go around banning a twelve year old's videos in Germany.

Maybe somebody in the blogosphere will pick this up and run with it. I would dearly love to have you folks at EMI made to look like the ignorant bullies that you are!

Uncharitably,

Piano*Dad
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1990073 - 11/23/12 01:20 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7302
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Does EMI have any postings on youtube? Perhaps you should claim that these are really your son playing!
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1990077 - 11/23/12 01:36 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1713
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
If you falsely file a claim of ownership of, or rights in, real estate, you can be liable to the true owner in many jurisdictions for "slander of title." I wonder if there's any way to apply that concept in internetland? OTOH, I'm not sure how you'd go about establishing damages. It might be fun, though...
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1990105 - 11/23/12 04:46 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Minniemay Offline
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Loc: CA
It might also be expensive!
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#1990284 - 11/24/12 11:12 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Found this. Couldn't resist:

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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1990313 - 11/24/12 12:42 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Sent to EMI home office today:

Since I'm effectively reprinting it here, I guess it's also an OPEN LETTER to EMI ...



Quote:
EMI Music Publishing

550 Madison Avenue, 5th Floor

New York, NY 10022

Dear Sir or Madam:

This is a small matter, hardly worth your time, I’m sure. But it’s enough of an annoyance to me that I have taken my time to draw your attention to it. The “it” is the false claim of ownership that EMI has made on two videos I made of my young son playing on my piano, in my music room, in my home, using my own crude recording equipment. I posted these videos on YouTube for him a number of years ago.

The first video is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s49AbZgRE1s

This is the first movement of the piano sonata in B-flat, K333, by Wolfgang Mozart. Since the piece of music is over 225 years old, it is clearly in the public domain. Your company seems to think it is a recording of Daniel Barenboim’s playing. Really? Anyone who actually viewed perhaps the first ten seconds of the recording would know that this is a fourteen year old, not Daniel Barenboim. The comparison is flattering to my son, I know, but that is fantasy, not reality.

The second video is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y1Cdj4jS4E

This is the 3rd movement of Beethoven’s Pathetique Sonata. Again, this is clearly a work that is in the public domain. EMI seems to think that this is actually Samson François at the piano. My son was twelve for this one. I think he was pretty good for a twelve year old with only four years of training. But Samson Francois he was not. Again, even an unpracticed ear can hear his mistakes and his “youthful” interpretation.

But in making its claim of copyright violation, EMI did not use an ear, unpracticed or otherwise. Like all of your competitors, EMI continues to rely on extraordinarily crude filters to determine possible copyright violations on the Internet. In so doing, you entrap thousands of totally innocent people who are presumed guilty until they undertake possibly lengthy procedures to clear themselves. If you had to pay a hefty nuisance fee to each and every individual who proves that your claim was fraudulent, I suspect you would find better filters.

Since no such nuisance fee is in the offing, the best I can do is to politely send letters of this sort, asking you to spend five minutes actually to view the videos.



Sincerely,
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1990359 - 11/24/12 03:04 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Peter K. Mose Offline
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Registered: 01/06/12
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Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Wonderful letter to the EMI sophisticates!

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#1990422 - 11/24/12 05:45 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5418
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Actually, the video is still available in South Sudan and North Korea, but nowhere else. grin

Nice!
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#1991301 - 11/27/12 01:39 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Well, imagine my surprise this morning when I discovered that an old recording I made of my son playing the first movement of Mozart's K333 is pulled off of youtube.

Other than EMI's obvious lack of attention to detail, why does this really matter?

Ed
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#1991305 - 11/27/12 01:55 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: LoPresti]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5212
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Well, imagine my surprise this morning when I discovered that an old recording I made of my son playing the first movement of Mozart's K333 is pulled off of youtube.

Other than EMI's obvious lack of attention to detail, why does this really matter?

Ed

Because EMI is requesting for piano-dad to take offline the video of his son. And it's infuriating at the least! (I call it fascist and I'm a composer and depended on copyrights actually, but still)...
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http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1991376 - 11/27/12 08:22 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: LoPresti]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7302
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Well, imagine my surprise this morning when I discovered that an old recording I made of my son playing the first movement of Mozart's K333 is pulled off of youtube.

Other than EMI's obvious lack of attention to detail, why does this really matter?

Ed

Ed, it's truly frustrating to expend hours on videoing, editing and up loading student performances, only to receive some banal tome from youtube telling you that your public domain material is copyrighted by some firm. It's not just EMI, there are others who troll youtube looking for possible ways to snag a royalty. I, for one, am going to assist EMI find the land of obscurity.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1991407 - 11/27/12 09:53 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: John v.d.Brook]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Ed, it's truly frustrating to expend hours on videoing, editing and up loading student performances, only to receive some banal tome from youtube telling you that your public domain material is copyrighted by some firm. It's not just EMI, there are others who troll youtube looking for possible ways to snag a royalty.


Originally Posted By: Mavis Johnson in THE JERK
Oooohhh --- so this is a PROFIT deal!


So, do I understand it correctly, John? Someone (EMI in this particular case) is attempting to collect royalties on PianoDad's son's performance?

(Now, sincerely trying to understand . . .)
Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1991411 - 11/27/12 10:08 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: LoPresti]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Posts: 7302
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
They would if they could. Mostly, I suspect, in EMI's case, it's just to protect their intellectual property, but doing so in the most offensive way imaginable.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1991417 - 11/27/12 10:20 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Concerning these copyright disputes, YouTube says that someone else's advertisements may appear in your videos if they have a claim to the rights for any portion of the material. That's if YouTube leaves your videos up at all. Initially, my son's Mozart video was blocked almost worldwide, though YouTube didn't actually remove it from my site, or remove my account entirely. They can do that. They can close your account down.

I think they tend to leave things for a while, in case the person who posts the video files an official dispute. I did that, and the videos again became viewable (I think). The ball then goes back into EMI's court, and they have a time window to "review" things. But in the end, all they have to do is reiterate their claim and you lose. YouTube blocks the video and/or nukes your account. There is no neutral arbiter and YouTube exercises no judgment. It would be far too costly to YouTube to be a referee. I get that. But the real power is in the hands of the rights ownership corporations like EMI. They really don't have to exercise any due process if it costs them anything. They can continue to use these crude bots to "match" content. The result is a claim that a kid's playing is that of Daniel Barenboim.

My only weapon is to contact the group privately, either by email -- if I can find it somewhere -- or by direct mail. I have done the latter in this case. EMI is notoriously hard to contact.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1991444 - 11/27/12 11:31 AM Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Piano*Dad,

Thank you for the clarification; your explanation is more in line with what I assumed was happening. So, is the real complaint by EMI that their ARTISTS (Barenboim, etc) are appearing “publicly” without proper compensation? Or that EMI’s performance rights on the music are being violated? Or something else?

I suppose what I am looking for is whether EMI has any legitimate rights to limit the public performance of these pieces of music.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1991462 - 11/27/12 12:01 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I'm certain that EMI does have the right to limit public posting of work by artists under contract to them. That's what intellectual property protection is all about. This is about rights and about money.

My objection here is to the process. The Internet has made copyright violation very easy. Music Rights groups like EMI think of automated matching programs as leveling the playing field, so to speak. These bots that crawl the web looking for pirated content are designed to sniff out little bits of content that are embedded in other peoples' work, as well as to find outright republishing, all of which dilutes the value that EMI provides to their clients.

But the matching programs seem quite crude at this point, so they sweep up the innocent with almost as much accuracy as the guilty. In statistics, there are type I and type II errors. This is the false positive and false negative problem in medical testing. My guess is that these matching programs have a large problem with false positives, i.e. they falsely identify content as pirated. But YouTube acts on the false positives unless the innocent victim actively badgers people to release the claim. Many won't bother, I'm sure. Me, I just get pissed. I'm happy to make a stink and take it public. Heck, I would love some blogger or Op-Ed writer to use my open letter in a very public way, like on the pages of the New York Times. Yeah, that would do! The pressure of embarrassment is about the only weapon I can bring to bear.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1991634 - 11/27/12 06:11 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
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Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
P*D and Ed, I'm not certain of this, but it was my understanding that the advertising revenue generated is used in part to pay the copyright holder royalties. Thus it is extremely important to deny pretenders any royalty income.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1991888 - 11/28/12 09:57 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: John v.d.Brook]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
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Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
P*D, have you thought about copyrighting your son's performances and allowing youtube to advertise on it and then paying you royalties for each site visitor? What is involved in generating an actual copyright? Something more than just a letter to the Library of Congress?
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1991910 - 11/28/12 11:29 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
We're well down that road. You do not need to copyright the material that you "monetize" on your YouTube account. Monetizing videos only requires that you swear and aver that the content is indeed your own. You create an Adsense account, and then you can allow YouTube to insert a text advertisement in the bottom of the video and/or allow them to place a short advertisement video before your video begins. Both of these ads can be closed out by a viewer if they hit an "x" button at the right time. Then the viewer proceeds to your video. Adsense has some algorithm for determining the value of each viewing of a monetized video based on how long the advertisement stays visible to the viewer. They also screen out self-dealing, i.e. you can't watch your own video over and over to boost advertising revenue. smile

For videos that go viral, the revenues can be quite large. For most people, however, it is mere pennies. And you have to get to $100 in revenue before YouTube pays out. P*S is closing in on that amount, actually, so I hope he can get a check for $100 in the next few months. He has two videos that are getting between 100 and 200 views per day. That's not too bad for classical. Both are Beethoven. Go figure. I think it's because they are graded pieces in the RSM scale, and thousands of kids in Hong Kong, Korea and Malaysia tune in to see how others play the graded works.

This is another reason why musical rights companies like EMI and Angel are getting aggressive about intellectual property rights. Somebody is getting money.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1991917 - 11/28/12 11:45 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Interesting. And depressing that posters are dependent on youtube's integrity and scale.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1991997 - 11/28/12 03:02 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Lollipop Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 820
Loc: Georgia
I wonder how Daniel Barenboin feels about EMI claiming someone else as him. Be fun to get him involved.
_________________________
piano teacher

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#1992039 - 11/28/12 04:48 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Interesting idea. Does anybody have his personal email address ... ? grin
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1992056 - 11/28/12 05:21 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Ina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 109
Loc: Slovenia
Maybe this one: mail.barenboim@gmail.com - it's the mail on his official website?
_________________________


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#1992061 - 11/28/12 05:29 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Yes, but I would bet that anything sent to that address will be read by some assistant whose job is to place as much distance as possible between the busy performer and the public. But heck, if anyone wants to point him to this thread, be my guest! smile
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1993009 - 11/30/12 10:14 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
DanS Offline
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Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 549
I'll email him. We all should!


Edited by DanS (12/01/12 12:32 AM)
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#1993399 - 12/01/12 09:15 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
blueston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 271
Loc: MA, USA
Don't know if this is an option for you but you can change the Title and Tags sometimes to be more vague.

For instance, when I post covers that list both the Title of the piece AND the Artist then I often find Youtube sends me a rude notice my video may infringe on someone's copyright.

So now I just use the Title (and don't put the Artist anywhere in the Post). Or sometimes you can use just the Artist (if they only have 1 o 2 popular pieces). Many times, just the Title (if it is unique enough) is enough for many people to find your video .

You may avoid all this hassle by posting this way.

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#1993430 - 12/01/12 10:54 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Blueston, this is not a cover. The "artist" is Beethoven or Mozart. The pianist is a boy. The piece of music is in the public domain, and the recording is my property.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1993432 - 12/01/12 10:58 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
For reasons that defy logic, EMI has reinstated its claim over these two works. Apparently this is automatic. I'm sure no human being has yet viewed the offending videos. I have appealed EMI's reinstated claim ...

Quote:
This video was produced in my house, on my piano, with my recording equipment. This is a twelve year old boy playing the piano. If EMI would only have a human being listen to this recording, they would quickly back off. This is harassment on their part.


YouTube uses threatening language at this point, saying that I may be liable for legal penalties, and they offer to have me remove the offending portions of my audio track by replacing it with something from "their library."

OK, now I will send something to Daniel Barenboim.

And EMI, I will hire a lawyer if you persist! Maybe that's the only way I can get satisfaction. Hire a lawyer and spend $1,000 to defend a YouTube video. OK, they're on. Warpath.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1993436 - 12/01/12 11:27 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I have sent an email to the email on Daniel Barenboim's website.

.
.
.

An Open Letter to Daniel Barenboim

Quote:
Dear Mr. Barenboim,

When my son was fourteen, we recorded a video of him playing Mozart's Sonata in B-Flat, K333. For a number of years, the video has sat happily and quietly on YouTube, earning thousands of views.

Unfortunately, the firm that represents you (EMI) has said that the audio is actually of your playing. They have now claimed ownership of the recording that I made of my son, in my house, on my piano, and with my recording equipment. The video was pulled down and YouTube has said I may be liable for legal penalties. I have appealed this twice, but EMI continues to claim that the audio portion of the recording is really your playing.

Sir, EMI clearly has not had a human being view the video. No one with an ear could confuse my young son's playing with yours. His interpretation is youthful, and he makes errors. Those mistakes are clearly audible. Some say we should be flattered at the comparison. I am not. I am stunned at the aggressive harassment from the firm that represents you.

Here is the offending video: Mozart Sonata in B-flat, K333

I am an outraged father at this point. I'm the little guy here, but I intend to fight back, and this is why I have notified you.

I am publishing this as an open letter on a well-viewed piano forum. Here is the link: Battling Goliath Again -- This Time EMI

And if EMI continues to harass me and my son, I will be forced to seek a legal remedy against EMI. This is absurd. I would deeply appreciate a moment of your time to view the video and communicate with EMI that my son's playing is indeed not yours.

Regards,
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1993438 - 12/01/12 11:31 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Nikolas Online   content
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What about calling them, or heading over to their office (EMI's office I mean)?

Or even more, I just feel the need to spread the word with this idiocy... I'm pretty sure that several high profile blogs will be interested.

So,

Who's got access (lives close) to EMI's headquarters please? Who knows a few blogs about classical music that can offer some insights and some promotion to this ugly story. I'd hate to see PD paying 1000$ to a lawyer in order to keep his sons videos on youtube! It's dead silly.

_________________

P*D what about small claims court? It's not about small claims either, though, unless you provide evidence that you've lost. Perhaps if you'd reached 100,000 views, you could get some money from youtube and claim that EMI is depriving you of that, thus dragging them to small claims court?

But I'm not in the US to know much more than this...
_________________________
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#1993441 - 12/01/12 11:47 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Nikolas,

Indeed, I would appreciate spreading the word to blogs and other piano forums. Embarrassment is the best weapon here. That's why I sent the note to Barenboim. I also sent a piece of direct mail to EMI's New York headquarters, where I'm sure some secretary will laugh at it as s(he) throws it into the recycling bin.

There is no monetary issue here, for me at least. I'm just tired of the petty harassment from these "rights" societies. If I have to hire a lawyer, I will.

Firms like EMI do have a right to protect their intellectual property. People do use clips of music that they don't own. But someone has to distinguish between theft of prominent artists' work and young kids playing on their own piano.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1993560 - 12/02/12 09:01 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
malkin Offline
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Call your local TV station, they love stories like this.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#1993639 - 12/02/12 12:49 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
ando Online   content
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So being dragged to court would actually be the most desirable outcome here because then you'd come face to face with your accuser and have an impartial judge to adjudicate. They'd also be liable for all costs when they lose. Bring on the court case!

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#1993642 - 12/02/12 12:55 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: malkin]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: malkin
Call your local TV station, they love stories like this.


Great idea!

You'll also get a lot of hits on your sons video when it finally comes back up on youtube.
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#1993644 - 12/02/12 12:56 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Quote:
Bring on the court case!

They're tempting me. REALLY tempting me.
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1993769 - 12/02/12 04:51 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
maxmila Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
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You could also contact Norman Lebrecht at his popular weblog. I believe he'd be interested in your story and may give it exposure or just even refer you to some EMI executive.

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#1993777 - 12/02/12 05:17 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Thank you. I have sent an email pointing him to this thread.
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#1994253 - 12/03/12 05:54 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: ando]
Lollipop Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando
They'd also be liable for all costs when they lose.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way here.
_________________________
piano teacher

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#1994382 - 12/03/12 11:07 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
MaryBee Offline
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Registered: 08/21/09
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
And EMI, I will hire a lawyer if you persist! Maybe that's the only way I can get satisfaction. Hire a lawyer and spend $1,000 to defend a YouTube video. OK, they're on. Warpath.

Of course you know, this means war!

_________________________
Mary Bee
Current mantra: Play outside the box.
XVI-XXXIV

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#1994528 - 12/04/12 08:36 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Thanks to maxmila! Norman Lebrecht took an interest in this issue!

The Slipped Disc: Norman Lebrecht's Blog

Now I have to hope that someone at EMI notices.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1994548 - 12/04/12 09:34 AM Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
LoPresti Offline
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In the "old days", we did not wait for "someone" (especially an anonymous corporation) to notice something we did. We made a telephone call. If that did not get results, we went there in person, or sent a representative, in person.

If the issue is that important to you, do something real.
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1994551 - 12/04/12 09:41 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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You live in NY Ed. You can go there in person. I live in VA. It's quite a hike. I have sent a written piece of mail to EMI. That's a pretty old-fashioned remedy, don't you think? Perhaps you haven't read the thread very thoroughly. A phone call to an automated answering system is not particularly useful. In the olden days a real human being answered, but these aren't the olden days. These days email is a quicker route to nirvana. But EMI has done a good job of keeping those personal email addresses out of view. I suppose I could ask someone in NY to waste a day wandering over to EMI headquarters, but I'm trying other methods first.

I would have figured that interesting Lebrecht to post on the issue was "doing something real" in today's world, but apparently you disagree, and disagree enough to take a snarky attitude. Yet I may ultimately get through to EMI, and/or get an email address on the inside, via that very public blog post.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1994574 - 12/04/12 10:36 AM Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
LoPresti Offline
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I am with you on the frustration end! If I finally understand this correctly, your main complaint is that EMI employs little automated software gadgets that search for infractions of their recording contracts. They are attempting to protect their revenue, and in so doing, “protecting” things that are not theirs..

So, the gadgets are MODERN, and ineffective. And so are your efforts, to date.

It seems everything done here is oblique, tangential, and impersonal. We make a general, written complaint on a forum of mostly strangers. We correspond with, and seek advice from, people who do not give their real names. We call 800 numbers. We push “3” if we would like to hear the message in Spanish. We leave voice messages on machines. Instead of seeking someone’s real address, we are preoccupied with eMail “addresses”. We compose eMail letters, and copy them to a public forum (of anonymous strangers). We send an electronic note, and consider that communication. We interest a third-party in our problem, and what does he do? He puts it on his “blog”. (Now. there is decisive action!) And then we HOPE that someone at EMI notices it. Seriously?

If the issue is really that important, do something real. You call it “snarky”, and I call it advice (from someone who does use his real name.)
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1994589 - 12/04/12 11:00 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Nikolas Online   content
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Just for the shake of clarity: It's not *exactly* EMI who's employing some dodgy automatic: It's youtube (ergo google actually, since youtube is owned by google).

So one should be careful how to word out any complaint, because the problem lies both at EMI for choosing how to fight copyright infringement and youtube/google for not putting out a better software.

Which, in fact, could be just a software judging names and titles and tags and nothing else (and that would be dead easy to do for a home computer, but for the zillion servers that youtube has?!?!? Yikes...). I wonder if contacting youtube/google would do a better job than contacting EMI?
_________________________
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#1994607 - 12/04/12 11:49 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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I have contacted Youtube mannnnnnnnny times over this matching software. I usually get a nice reply from the "youtube team" pointing me to some FAQ and wishing me a nice day.

On occasion, I have winkled a real response out of them, including an email address of someone at one of the firms.

I decided to go web nuclear on this one because the EMI complaint led immediately to the shutting down of the video, and because EMI reiterated its complaint (and shut the video down again) all without bothering to go beyond YouTube's automated matching juggernaut. Don't mess with an annoyed piano dad. smile

In fact, I don't think I have said anything scurrilous about EMI. I acknowledge their interest in protecting the intellectual property of their clients. But they should acknowledge the damage they do to innocent bystanders like my son.
_________________________
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1994626 - 12/04/12 12:47 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Jeff Clef Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
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Give it up, PianoDad--- just retag the vid as "Daniel Barenboim Plays ______" and post it back up. Maybe it will do more for your blood pressure than by going at it the other way.

I think the cable or broadcast networks would be a better bet for the squib than your local station; they are always looking for fluff to fill out a segment or fill up a column end, especially if the content is cheap or free, eg you supply the video, sound, text, and make the fact-check easy for them. And if it fits in with a narrative familiar and dear (or not so dear, but well-known) to their viewers--- your chances are good with this story.

Do we not recall some similar capers of other musicians? [1] A guitarist whose instrument was killed by an airline (which blew off any responsibility); his song mocking them--- by name--- went viral in the millions, then the networks picked it up. The carrier came crawling in the end, but their name was already mud, and the guitarist got some ink. [2] The Starbucks guy who posted a vid of his song, mocking certain plumpish customers. Fired, of course, but it got some attention, which is gold to a performer. I think the worst of that one was that he pointed out that non-fat moccha frappucinos do not actually make you non-fat. I guess Starbucks has never heard of Randy Newman. [3] Not in the same category, but I can't resist: tone-deaf William Hung covering "She Bangs." Being a cult sensation may not be all that, but it's something--- and I'm sure your boy is better; anyone is.
_________________________
Clef


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#1995176 - 12/05/12 07:03 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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I had a very nice chat this afternoon with the Senior Director of Legal Affairs at EMI. He was quite apologetic about this episode. Apparently my two videos fell through the cracks as they were upgrading some systems. Usually, appeals get a personal review. Mine didn't. He said classical audio presents the biggest identification problem. The matching software is really bad at generating false matches. On the pop side of things, he said that most of their claims actually are solid. He gave the example of some parent who makes a video of their daughter dancing, and they use some pop tune as the background. The filters catch this. The parent appeals, not realizing that the use of a copyrighted song as background is a problem.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1995184 - 12/05/12 07:30 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
DanS Offline
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So problem solved? Is the video back up?
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#1995193 - 12/05/12 07:53 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
LoPresti Offline
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
I had a very nice chat this afternoon with the Senior Director of Legal Affairs at EMI. He was quite apologetic about this episode.

I am NOT trying to stir things up again, but I am very curious. Was this "nice chat", that apparently got some satisfaction, on the telephone, in person, or via electronic mail?

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1995195 - 12/05/12 07:56 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Dan,

Yes, yes. They were back up quite quickly after I sent him an email yesterday. And I only found that point of contact though the good offices of Norman Lebrecht's blog post on the subject. One of the comments contained leads for the legal team inside EMI.

Ed,

The email/Internet/blog approach worked in the modern world.

Yes, the final conversation was by phone, but I only discovered him via Lebrecht's rather long distance (UK) intervention, and that happened almost effortlessly because an email to him in Britain was easier than pie.

We had a very good conversation about the shifting legal, technological, and policy environment of the recording industry. I now have his email address, and his phone number, in case this thing happens in the future.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1995198 - 12/05/12 07:59 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
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P*D - <applause>

Cathy
_________________________

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#1995199 - 12/05/12 08:01 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
malkin Offline
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Hooray for Piano*Dad and his Piano*kid!
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#1995202 - 12/05/12 08:05 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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I have a flute*son as well as a piano*son, and both have had their videos tagged this way. Worming my way into these corporations is becoming a real sport. smile
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1995205 - 12/05/12 08:08 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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BTW, one suggestion I made to EMI is that they should encourage YouTube to build a small email address book so that YouTube users who run afoul of the matching software have a direct email address for each of the firms that uses google's automated system to initiate copyright claims. That email would be tagged to formal appeals, and using it would trigger a personal review. These reviews actually take very little time. Most are cut and dried.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1995278 - 12/06/12 12:44 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
DanS Offline
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That is fantastic news! Congrats.
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#1995293 - 12/06/12 01:46 AM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Nikolas Online   content
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Congrats dad!

The problem, though, still applies. I'm wondering what would happen if YOU had filled a complained that EMI was using your sons recording...

My point is that is it "whoever files the complaint has the last say", or is it "the strong firms have the last say"?
_________________________
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#1995433 - 12/06/12 12:17 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
BeccaBb Offline
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Way to go Piano Dad! Good on you for not rolling over for them! smile Congrats!
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Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

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#1995505 - 12/06/12 02:39 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Jeff Clef Offline
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Admirable, PianoDad. I'm sure Piano Son must be very proud of you. Lots of us are, but that's where it really counts.

And what a lovely bedtime story for the Piano Grandkids.
_________________________
Clef


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#1995507 - 12/06/12 02:46 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Lebrecht follows up.

EMI apologizes
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1995512 - 12/06/12 03:14 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
maxmila Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 70
Hi David, I'm glad all ended well.

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#1995559 - 12/06/12 05:04 PM Re: Battling Goliath Again -- EMI this time [Re: Piano*Dad]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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It's your fault, you know. wink
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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