Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
103 registered (Anne'sson, Anita Potter, AndyP, anamnesis, angga888, accordeur, 28 invisible), 1476 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#1990171 - 11/23/12 10:27 PM Beethoven Op 109 double trills help
asthecrowflies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 122
Loc: London, Cambridge, San Francis...
I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the fingering for the double trill in the finale, starting in measure 164.

The right hand fingering is pretty self-explanatory. I assume the left-hand should switch from 1b-2c# to 2b-1c#, but how to best negotiate that and where?

And then... any advice on how best to learn/practice this to gain mastery?

thanks
vince
_________________________
Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#1990290 - 11/24/12 11:24 AM Re: Beethoven Op 109 double trills help [Re: asthecrowflies]
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 763
Loc: South Carolina
I'm replying off of the top o' me 'ead....scoreless....so I hope that this makes sense:

IMO, the lh 12 fingering should only last for the first beat of the triplet melody (@ that low B). As you strike the first lh G-sharp then you can revert to the 21 fingering.

As far as a strategy for that section: I feel that one cannot allow the trills to sound as if they are dictating the tempo. So first I would concentrate more on the outer parts being played with a firm pulse (be it fast or slow - I would side with slow to start) while the trills themselves are played freely and a bit on the soft side (it wouldn't hurt - even at this stage - to play the trills quickly).

When you feel comfortable with this, then it's time to raise the pulse of the outer voices. The speed of the trills needn't increase at the start. If you're not forcing them, they might speed up on their own after a couple of repetitions. You should still be playing them freely until you feel that you can bring them together without disturbing the dynamic balance between the voices.

Repeat the process again until you reach the tempo of the outer voices that you want. After you get there, you need to do the necessary work to bring the trills together without sounding louder and "pulse-y" - which shouldn't be so hard if you've followed the steps as outlined above.

Please keep in mind that your teacher might have a different strategy for this, or a different opinion on how the trills should be played - one(s) that are better suited for you than mine.

Enjoy the work!

edit: Now that I think of it, I believe that the Henle edition contains a pragmatic solution to your lh fingering dilemma...anyone?


Edited by Gerard12 (11/24/12 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

Top
#1990315 - 11/24/12 12:46 PM Re: Beethoven Op 109 double trills help [Re: asthecrowflies]
asthecrowflies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 122
Loc: London, Cambridge, San Francis...
Great, thanks for the tips. I'll give it a go. My biggest problem is that I find it hard to separate the pulse from the trill in the left hand. The thumb on the c# makes it more difficult because it forces my hand position to turn in at an awkward angle. I have the henle, and it gives me 12 on the first triplet to 3121, which doesn't exactly flow naturally for me even at a slow speed. But seems like there's no other option.

I don't have a teacher, so I'm kind of feeling it out myself. I've love to get one, but I have a busy day job and practice habits that are much more erratic than I like. I'll be on the road for weeks and unable to get a practice in, and then gorge for 6 hours a day during thanksgiving. wink
_________________________
Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Just joined
by wise_manzard
11/27/14 10:20 PM
LACHNIT MK22
by Vas
11/27/14 09:27 PM
You Usually Get what you Pay for in this World.......
by Paul678
11/27/14 08:22 PM
Steinway legs?
by Klavimaniac
11/27/14 06:58 PM
1875 legs and lyre where to get?
by Klavimaniac
11/27/14 06:02 PM
Forum Stats
77071 Members
42 Forums
159408 Topics
2341649 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission