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#1990203 - 11/24/12 02:24 AM Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos
VIP Piano Club Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
I've had a chance to meet Del Fandrich who is the piano technician they hired; I'm not a tech and have never played on the newer models. Has anyone played on these upgraded grands; and if you have, what is your opinion?
-Ryan

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#1990260 - 11/24/12 09:17 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10468
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Welcome to the Piano Forum Ryan.

Del is somewhat of a regular here. He and others, including myself, are familiar with his work for YC over the past few years and have posted a great deal about them.

One way you could "catch up" is by 8using the Users List (top of this screen) to find Del, and then click on View Posts' A significant percentage of threads Del participates in include info and opinions on the new YC designs.

From my experience the new designs are a significant improbement to entry-level and mid-range quality pianos. In particular, the tone he is able to get from smaller grands is quite remarkable.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1990872 - 11/25/12 11:24 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
I tried the little Weber W150 and W114. They both sounded really nice and smooth. There were taller uprights near the W114 and I didn't like their tones as much. The next best qualities on these pianos were the prices! smile

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#1990994 - 11/26/12 09:44 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
The new Young Chang 4'11" has amazing clarity and sustain for such a small piano. I went to Del's all-day seminar at the PTG 2012 convention in Seattle, and he has done extensive spectrum analysis of alternate bass string and soundboard designs. These are Real World measurements, not just whether a piano has "magic" or "sparkle".

--Cy--
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Cy Shuster, RPT
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#1991950 - 11/28/12 01:08 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: gnuboi]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5244
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: gnuboi
I tried the little Weber W150 and W114. They both sounded really nice and smooth. There were taller uprights near the W114 and I didn't like their tones as much.

The taller pianos were probably the older designs. Most of the larger verticals have either just recently entered production or are about ready to. I should be signing off on the last of the new designs next month.

For the first time since this project began all of the pianos -- grands and verticals -- on display at the NAMM show (this coming January) will have the new design package. There will undoubtedly be some further refinement over the next few months/years but the heavy work is pretty much done.


Quote:
The next best qualities on these pianos were the prices! smile

That, of course, has been the biggest challenge. It is relatively easy to come up with good acoustical performance if production cost is no object. It becomes considerably more difficult when you are designing and building to a specific -- and low -- price point.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2048985 - 03/16/13 03:58 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Steve Cohen]
VIP Piano Club Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Steve,

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I am going to update my settings so I get notifications via email when there are replies to a post. Thank you for the feedback. After conversing with Del in person I could tell he deeply cares about the quality of his designs, and it is fantastic to hear that the actual production is bearing fruit to the value of his expertise.
-Ryan

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#2048986 - 03/16/13 04:09 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
VIP Piano Club Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Cy, it is a fantastic point you make regarding the difference between the psychological aspect of the "whim of the moment" experience someone may think they are feeling when the sales representative points out that "magical" moment you are referring to, in contrast to the mathematical "irrefutable" angle. In many years to come, if indeed Del's measurements become more well known, Young Chang's sales representatives will have consistent selling point. Del is very humble in my opinion; and it may take those like you who understand his findings to really hit the point home.
-Ryan

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#2048988 - 03/16/13 04:14 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Del]
VIP Piano Club Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Del,
It is wonderful to see you here! I appreciated your hospitality when you came to the Portland area. And I can see you really are impacting the piano industry; your years of hard work are paying off. Congrats!
-Ryan

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#2049081 - 03/16/13 10:38 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
To have any meaningful context to quantitative "data" regarding good piano tone-you first need to define "good" in the terms you are measuring. I have never met a piano purchaser who "measures" piano tone quality with any sort of tool. I have also never heard of any one producing a credible technical definition of good piano tone and touch beyond my own basic efforts to flesh out my theory of Musical Intelligible Sound.

I wish YC and Del great success with their endeavor and Del is always an interesting and experienced voice regarding piano technology. I hope to go play the new YC's soon.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2049255 - 03/16/13 05:54 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
I have also never heard of any one producing a credible technical definition of good piano tone and touch beyond my own basic efforts to flesh out my theory of Musical Intelligible Sound.


That's right - there are no 'technical' definitions.

But there *musical ones* - here's one:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/e8ffb87c#/e8ffb87c/276

Norbert



Edited by Norbert (03/16/13 05:57 PM)
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#2049258 - 03/16/13 06:01 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7287
Loc: Rochester MN
When it comes to pianos, a good sound is in the ear of the beholder and a good touch is in the hand of the player. Taste and preference supersedes all else.

Nothing More - Nothing Less
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049421 - 03/16/13 11:46 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I do not subscribe to the "random taste" theory of how the universe works.

Music is a language of emotional information. All humans share the same emotions. All human cultures use musical elements to communicate with each other about emotional intent. Good tone simply does this task better than bad tone and that is how you qualitatively differentiate between them. Good piano touch allows a pianist to do this task regularly and for a significant duration without struggle.

Tone quality is rooted in vocal practice. Touch is rooted in ergonometrics.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2049456 - 03/17/13 02:06 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Culture.

We forget "culture"

Nobody can get Flamenco sound quite like the Spanish do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CjLfu9zCk

Western sound has also grown over hundreds of years.

Some capture sound the way they see fit or "design" things

The real McCoys do it without effort - or pretense.

They "have" for very long time...

Worth thinking.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2049843 - 03/17/13 06:31 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Norbert,
The culture of piano music may have originated in europe-but like most great ideas-people all over the world want to use it. I have a historical reductionist axiom that what defines western culture as "Western"-is that any good idea from anywhere is incorporated/borrowed/stolen into the culture.

The elements that allow maximum musical expression can be defined with an engineering framework. I have done that with pianos, just not published it yet. The fundamental assumption embodied is that tone/touch is not a random taste issue.

Linguistics has proven that all spoken languages can be reduced to a set number of sound elements that are universal to all known languages. This means that humans are physically hardwired for intellectually intelligible sound. This is the reason algorithms can be constructed to synthesis speech.

Since music is emotional language-the expressive elements are also hardwired. Thus a model of piano quality can be constructed and protocols for design elements tested.

I hope you don't find this pretentious of me. I do sometimes find your double spaced posts "full of hot air" at times.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2049853 - 03/17/13 06:41 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7287
Loc: Rochester MN
It will be a truly perfect world when the perfect piano tone, and the perfect piano touch, are codified and all pianos will conform to strict parameters.

Ah yes, perfect piano prejudice will permeate the planet.

Perfection!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049855 - 03/17/13 06:43 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

The elements that allow maximum musical expression can be defined with an engineering framework. I have done that with pianos, just not published it yet. The fundamental assumption embodied is that tone/touch is not a random taste issue.

Linguistics has proven that all spoken languages can be reduced to a set number of sound elements that are universal to all known languages. This means that humans are physically hardwired for intellectually intelligible sound. This is the reason algorithms can be constructed to synthesis speech.

Since music is emotional language-the expressive elements are also hardwired. Thus a model of piano quality can be constructed and protocols for design elements tested.


Interesting - these set number of sound elements are used when a "computer" is speaking to us - as in automated phone calls / automated responses on the phone. My ears can tell the difference between a computer and a real person.

Jonathan

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#2049886 - 03/17/13 07:30 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Yes, the computer algorithms cut a lot of corners to save processing speed-and that produces the recognizable "computer voice".

Human ears can be incredibly sensitive to some tonal elements. I am 60YO and if I meet someone on the street I haven't seen for 30 years I will almost certainly not recognize them-until they speak-then I remember their voice.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2049998 - 03/18/13 01:02 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Since music is emotional language-the expressive elements are also hardwired. Thus a model of piano quality can be constructed and protocols for design elements tested.



Perhaps you can give us an example of this?

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#2050024 - 03/18/13 02:47 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
ahhsmurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 48
Loc: Banned
All humans share the same emotions.

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#2050088 - 03/18/13 06:59 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: ahhsmurf]
patH Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 561
Loc: Germany
Quote:
All humans share the same emotions.
To the two posters who said this: Can you back this statement up?
I don't have a degree in psychology, but I doubt that a sociopath has the same emotions as a philantropist.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2050096 - 03/18/13 07:41 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Quote:
When it comes to pianos, a good sound is in the ear of the beholder and a good touch is in the hand of the player. Taste and preference supersedes all else.


This would result in a free-for-all! It's the skilled piano technician who is the guardian of standards in piano tone and touch. It is his or her job to educate his or her ear to what is correct and desirable and then learn to re-create those standards on pianos he or she works on.

Learning to tune is easy compared to learning what a piano should sound like and then being able to re-create that standard on the instrument at hand.
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#2050127 - 03/18/13 08:47 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7287
Loc: Rochester MN
Eric - I was speaking from the viewpoint of the pianist, not from the tech/rebuilder.

After all, it is the buyer whose preference is the most important. Without the pianst, there would be no need to build the piano.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2050172 - 03/18/13 10:44 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Norbert]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2050173 - 03/18/13 10:46 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: patH]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Sociopathy is a category of illness. It is define by the lack of normal emotions.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2050175 - 03/18/13 10:49 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: BoseEric]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Eric is right on,
This is why great tone-regulators have music in their background. Some formally trained some self-taught.

Marty, do you teach your students about tone color when playing? If you do you ARE establishing standards to piano tone and touch.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2050199 - 03/18/13 11:41 AM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Marty,
In the case of your "first chicken or first egg" post-the piano came first! (Snare drum, rim shot! Kapow!!)
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2050214 - 03/18/13 12:11 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.


You misunderstood me - read my post again: I wasn't questioning your pianos.

Presumably your understanding of tone or "sound ideal" is similar to what has prevailed in the Western world for long time.

In fact, a description by yourself would be nice to have.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2050225 - 03/18/13 12:31 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7287
Loc: Rochester MN
Mr. McMorrow,

In my teaching, I am not establishing "standards to piano tone." I am teaching a student the methods of advanced technique to allow the student to draw from the color pallete available within an instrument. But first, the instrument must be able to respond in a way that variations of tonal color are available. Unfortunately, many brands of piano are very limited in their response.

That is why trying to 'define and codify' the tone and touch is a futile search. The experience of the player has already defined what is perfect for them. For a builder, or re-builder, to assume the role of arbiter of what is proper, is regressive in approach. It will always be the choice of the player/owner/musician to decide exactly what is best for themselves. To not have the choice, by only producing identical pianos with no variation in response, is the demise of musicianship. When one is so focused on making the mechanics of an instrument, including tonality, so lacking in variation, the concept of musicianship is lost. That would be a catastrophe.

However, all this is moot. Now that I have learned that pianos are hatched, and not built, it becomes futile to contemplate.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2050229 - 03/18/13 12:36 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: VIP Piano Club]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2307
Loc: SoCal
A few months ago while auditioning pianos, I tried a Weber 5' of Del's design. It had a very nice tone, the bass in particular. The particular one I played had a very clunky action, however, so I gave it a pass. Unfortunately there was not another of the same model to try out. I'm sure that one was an anomaly.
_________________________
Gary

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#2050230 - 03/18/13 12:39 PM Re: Young Chang's New Improved Grand Pianos [Re: Norbert]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7287
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Originally Posted By: McMorrow
Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.

You misunderstood me - read my post again: I wasn't questioning your pianos.

Presumably your understanding of tone or "sound ideal" is similar to what has prevailed in the Western world for long time.

In fact, a description by yourself would be nice to have.

Norbert,

Comprehension by Mr. McMorrow is a continuing problem. It is the same with expressing himself. Why would he summon all of his pianos around himself? It seems that he is trying to convince his pianos of his own point. Very confusing, indeed.

I believe that this very type of summons was used in "Hansel & Gretel."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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