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#1990006 - 11/23/12 08:19 AM Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq
dmd Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 3004
Loc: Pennsylvania
I am wondering if using the Kawai CA95 DP as a midi controller for Pianoteq software and then channeling the generated sound back through the CA95 speaker system / soundboard will result in the soundboard playing a role in the sound the listener is hearing.

Any thoughts on this ?
_________________________
Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur

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#1990084 - 11/23/12 02:47 PM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3510
Loc: Texas
I recall we had this discussion (about the CA93). IIRC the transducer that vibrates the soundboard does so for anything that comes out of the speakers. If that is correct, then it should play a role if you are piping VST sounds back in. Yes.

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#1990089 - 11/23/12 03:23 PM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: gvfarns]
dmd Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 3004
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I recall we had this discussion (about the CA93). IIRC the transducer that vibrates the soundboard does so for anything that comes out of the speakers. If that is correct, then it should play a role if you are piping VST sounds back in. Yes.


Well, I guess my memory is failing ...LOL ...

But, ok ... thanks

I am not actually doing this. I saw this question posted on another forum and I thought I would check here to see what info I can pick up.

I actually thought the soundboard would not vibrate but, of course, I really have no idea how a soundboard works.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur

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#1990103 - 11/23/12 04:37 PM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
A very interesting question generally, to what degree the soundboard had to be "engineered" and tuned to a given set of instruments sound or it is just a careful selected piece of wood and not very sensitive, nothing specific to the instruments.

What sounds are produced when tuning the instrument to another pitch than 440Hz, how it behaves with completely other instruments as harpsichords or even organs, etc.

Are there any excessive resonances or it behaves neutral over a broad spectrum?

Experiences? (Previous discussion about CA93 soundboard an Pianoteq )
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
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#1990121 - 11/23/12 06:06 PM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1374
Loc: The Netherlands
Edit: it works. For best results over the speaker system you could do this:

get a good measuring microphone , a source that can play test noise burst and an analyzer that can analyze the outcome of the noise played through the speaker/ soundboard system of the piano. Afterwards a match EQ can compensate for the filter curve that will have shown up (original source compared to the measured sound through the system). Of course you have to level the signal first before comparisson (both equally loud at a chosen reference frequency).

With an carefully adjusted EQ in between when playing over the speakers, you get a sound that best matches the potential of the instruments amp/speaker/acoustical characteristics.


Edited by JFP (11/24/12 09:05 AM)

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#1990140 - 11/23/12 07:55 PM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 12684
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dmd
I am wondering if using the Kawai CA95 DP as a midi controller for Pianoteq software and then channeling the generated sound back through the CA95 speaker system / soundboard will result in the soundboard playing a role in the sound the listener is hearing.


Yes, this is very easily achieved. Just connect the output from your computer to the LINE IN jacks on the CA95 and the sound will be routed through the speakers and soundboard.

Note that the CA95's improved soundboard has a broader frequency range than that of the previous generation CA93.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#1990211 - 11/24/12 04:03 AM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1374
Loc: The Netherlands
@james, do you imply that the ca series do indeed have a (speaker/ cabinet) correction EQ for the audio input as well and not only for the internal sound engine, like on the ES7 ? Or do you need to have some EQ to get the sound properly out of the system as well with the ca ?

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#1990242 - 11/24/12 08:39 AM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 12684
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
JFP, Don asked if the Pianoteq sound from his computer could be routed into the CA95's amplifier and output through the instrument's soundboard speaker, and I confirmed that this is indeed possible.

As far as I'm concerned, his question has been answered.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#1990250 - 11/24/12 08:53 AM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1374
Loc: The Netherlands
Misunderstanding here: I absolutely don't mean there is something wrong with the input.

I mean that the signal you put into the piano is not corrected for the speaker / amplification system , like the sounds from the internal sound engine that pass a filter section when played over the speakers to correct for acoustical / physical 'bending' of the frequency curve.

That the input is uncorrected is best practice, because in that way it's fine when heard over headphones and over the audio outputs. Only for playing over the speakers it would be nice to be able to add an EQ in between (usually SW plugin) to adjust for the frequency characteristics of the playback system - speakers, cabinet, acoustics.

The method I described is one way to get such an EQ curve. Kawai has the curve that has been put into the piano rom for the digital EQ between sound engine and speaker system. Unfortunately that's not public, cause it would save the hassle of the do it yourself method.

So no criticism on the Kawai audio setup, just an additional consideration for people who want to use the audio input for playing SW instruments. I think this counts for all DP's with audio input that goes straight in the amp/speaker system, like Casio, Roland etc.

..


Edited by JFP (11/24/12 09:14 AM)

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#1990263 - 11/24/12 09:24 AM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: JFP]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 12684
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: JFP
I absolutely don't mean there is something wrong with the input.


Ah, that's good to know.

For a moment there I thought you were trying to draw attention to an issue that does not exist.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#1990591 - 11/25/12 05:50 AM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi, James,

I think JFP's basic question remains unanswered: is there in CA95 a built in EQ correction just for amplifying analog input to be output through the speaker system or not. (Ideally it should be).
Quote:
That the input is uncorrected is best practice, because in that way it's fine when heard over headphones and over the audio outputs. Only for playing over the speakers it would be nice to be able to add an EQ in between (usually SW plugin) to adjust for the frequency characteristics of the playback system - speakers, cabinet, acoustics.
For mixing/layering, output through headphones and rendering to produce WAV/MP3 the DP should use the unprocessed signal, only for the output of the already mixed analog signal should be corrected before amplified.

The whole measuring procedure described by JFP would include only completely unspecific components (Noise, Mics, Measurement tools), the results apply to all audio input signals, so users should be spared from having this unnecessary hassle.

Information from Kawai would be welcome for all CA95 users and would be users: Is there a possibility/need for optimising audio output through CA95 speaker system or all needed corrections are built in already. (When not yet there, would it be possible to get a future parameter update to have this?)

Thx. Attila

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#2138143 - 08/24/13 08:23 AM Re: Kawai CA95 running Pianoteq [Re: dmd]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1374
Loc: The Netherlands
Did anybody ever find out about the presence or absence of correction EQ for the audio input (when played over speakers) ? Ca-95/ cs10 are the only models that have an AD converter for the audio input, so the external audio is added to the digital signal path at some stage in the chain. In theory it could therefore pass the digital correction EQ as well, but if it does remains a top secret. Kawai refuses to answer that question , so perhaps any CA-95 owner can chime in and post their experience .

It's easy to test. Put a good recording in WAV format on a USB stick and play it through the speakers system . Have the same recording on an external device like an MP3 player an route that through the audio input. Level the two audio examples , so they play equally loud and do an A/B comparisson.

If the audio quality is the same, the audio-in does indeed pass some EQ before entering the speaker system. If it sounds quite different and probably not so good, it is played back straight through (uncorrected).

Sorry, I don't have a CA95 at my disposal to try for myself...

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