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#1991304 - 11/27/12 01:55 AM Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Question:

Does anyone think that the "Vintage II" presets in the V-Piano sound like a Bosendorfer concert grand?

This may be a subjective opinion, although there are many musicians/pianists (myself included) that don't believe the "Vintage II" presets represent (or, come anywhere close to simulating) the sound of a true Bosendorfer grand.

It is Scott Tibbs (of Roland) who mentions the "Vintage II" presets represent the "European Model" (i.e., Bosendorfer) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

As much as I enjoy the great decay/sustain of the V-Piano and all of the other settings that can change the quality of those sounds, I don't perceive any of the "Vintage II" presets being representative of a Bosendorfer concert grand. Also, the connectivity to the playing is fantastic, although the piano sounds themselves seem to fall short of the claims.

To my ears the "Vintage II" presets are somewhat like a muted/mellow-voiced piano sound that appears to basically be the same default tone as "Vintage I" with nearly identical characteristics. In fact, the more I listen to all of the other presets ("Silver" and so forth) they all seem to have the same underlying tonal characteristics as "Vintage I." All of the presets were meant to be uniquely different from one another, although I only am hearing the similarities (of a fundamental/basic tone) in these presets and not the differences.

Vintage I is a "Steinway D" and Vintage II is the "Bosendorfer" according to Roland, although many of us are just not hearing these different models, as such.

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#1991348 - 11/27/12 06:38 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5054
I've always thought that the Vintage 2 presets are Roland's representation of Blüthner, not Bösendorfer, which has a rather brighter, bell-like sound rather than the muted mellowness of V2. Which is why for Bösendorfer, I base my settings on V1 Concert (as per my V-PIano presets thread from long, long ago).

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#1991369 - 11/27/12 08:12 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Roland always claimed V2 was Bosenforder. I'm afraid V2 is a completely unusable sound - for anything at all.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1991382 - 11/27/12 08:39 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
i think the V2 is a great piano for emulating the sound of a bos being played at the bottom of a swimming pool. or playing a piano with bad nasal allergies. the piano, not the player... I never understood what they were trying to accomplish with that sound.

here is how i've reconciled life with my V-Piano. I use it for practicing (i don't mind its voicings at all while playing- i just don't care for their sound when recorded) and creating midi files which i then use to render audio files using Ivory II. With a high quality/ multi-velocity layer VST for rendering audio(Ivory II is anywhere from 16-20 layers), the vpiano creates very nice midi files for that purpose as it is not velocity level constrained in its own right. i notice very little difference in recordings where i've rendered from a vpiano generated midi file vs one where i've recorded audio directly from Ivory II.
Sometimes i just use it as a controller for Ivory II and the two mesh together very nicely. Life is a compromise, and this has bee a good one for I really enjoy playing the v-piano with its solid action and overall feel.

I still remain amazed that Roland hasn't done a thing with it in over 2 years?... do they even make them anymore?

EDIT: per pv88's original comment - i think all the pianos sound "the same" because they use the same model. i think there is one vpiano model, and it probably is filtered in some way to produce the different character of each piano. If the vintage 1, 2 and silver were discrete models, we'd probably have seen more new pianos coming in updates. The fact that we haven't tells me there is probably just ONE vpiano model/algorithm. I think they've run out of ammo basically. One-trick pony.


Edited by bfb (11/27/12 08:46 AM)
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1991388 - 11/27/12 09:01 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9088
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Over to you bennevis...
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1991421 - 11/27/12 10:27 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: Kawai James]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Over to you bennevis...


come'on James, i thought my commentary was fair and balanced, not in the least inflammatory! i i use it every day, and it has strengths and weaknesses.
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1991449 - 11/27/12 11:35 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: Kawai James]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5054
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Over to you bennevis...


Ah, a red rag to a bull mad. Never could resist.... grin (not that I'm a bull, despite all appearances to the contrary).

Where shall I start? Well, let's start with the V2 settings. Roland, according to my brochures and websites, never mentioned 'Bösendorfer', they just hinted that they based the sound on a mellow 'European piano' beginning with B. (And the V1 settings are based on a typical American piano beginning with S, which of course I took to be Stuart & Sons... grin...oops, are they Australian?).

Bösendorfer sound can be mellow but in fact their biggest characteristic is the bell-like woody tone, and they often sound brighter than Steinway in the mid registers. Blüthner on the other hand is characteristically mellow and 'plummy' in tone: listen to Mikhail Pletnev's Beethoven Concerto recordings, or his Tchaikovsky Op.18; or Artur Pizarro playing Albéniz's Iberia or Beethoven Sonatas or Chopin Sonatas; or Petronel Malan playing transcriptions, all on Blüthner Model 1 concert grand. With Bösendorfer, you have a whole range of pianists from Earl Wild (before he switched to S Kawai) to Garrick Ohlsson to Friedrich Gulda to Valentina Lisitsa to (name your favorite jazz pianist)....

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#1991456 - 11/27/12 11:50 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: bfb]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5054
Originally Posted By: bfb
Life is a compromise, and this has bee a good one for I really enjoy playing the v-piano with its solid action and overall feel.

I still remain amazed that Roland hasn't done a thing with it in over 2 years?... do they even make them anymore?

EDIT: per pv88's original comment - i think all the pianos sound "the same" because they use the same model. i think there is one vpiano model, and it probably is filtered in some way to produce the different character of each piano. If the vintage 1, 2 and silver were discrete models, we'd probably have seen more new pianos coming in updates. The fact that we haven't tells me there is probably just ONE vpiano model/algorithm. I think they've run out of ammo basically. One-trick pony.


Of course the V-Piano is a one-trick pony. The name says it all - it's a 'piano', not synth, not EP, not fake organ, not pseudo Hammond, not.... And that's why I like it the way it is; I wouldn't buy a Bösendorfer and expect it to give me funny sounds at the touch of a button. The V-Piano is designed to be a pianist's piano but with customizable sounds, unlike acoustic pianos where you have to pay a tech to harden/soften the hammers etc, etc if you want to change its tone. All the effort has gone towards making it react and feel like the real thing when you play it, not into superfluous fluffy stuff that real pianists don't want.

Real pianists don't change their pianos every two years..... grin

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#1991479 - 11/27/12 12:34 PM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
bennevis - you fail to address Bruce's and Richard's point...

To quote Bruce: "per pv88's original comment - i think all the pianos sound "the same" because they use the same model"

Which is what I've said from the start - the V-Piano always sounds like a V-Piano. The "virtual showroom of concert grands" promised by Roland is fantasy.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1991531 - 11/27/12 02:26 PM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: EssBrace]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5054
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
bennevis - you fail to address Bruce's and Richard's point...

To quote Bruce: "per pv88's original comment - i think all the pianos sound "the same" because they use the same model"

Which is what I've said from the start - the V-Piano always sounds like a V-Piano. The "virtual showroom of concert grands" promised by Roland is fantasy.


The V1 presets come from the same family, but different from the V2 presets, just as Steinway grands cannot be made to sound like Blüthner (no matter what's done to the hammers etc), nor vice versa. I don't use the Vanguard settings much, but with careful customization, they can be made to sound like real pianos rather than just 'futuristic' ones as Roland says. But you can really go to town with the customizations and get a 'virtual showroom' - just that some of them won't actually sound like any acoustic piano you've ever heard. But saying that, I've heard some really weird-sounding acoustic pianos in my time; even the now-established Stuart & Sons grands from down under took my breath away with its individual tone (almost all fundamentals, even in the lowest bass) when I first heard it. And have you heard the gigantic Klavins Model 408 and 370?

I've got several settings that I use and all sound different to each other. My Yamaha CFX setting sounds nothing like my Blüthner one, nor my Borgato L282 one, nor my Steinway D one, nor my Bösendorfer Imperial. (They are far more dissimilar than say, the Piano 1 and Piano 2 settings on Yamaha AGs). They still sound like acoustic grands......

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#1991547 - 11/27/12 03:03 PM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: bennevis]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
bennevis - you fail to address Bruce's and Richard's point...

To quote Bruce: "per pv88's original comment - i think all the pianos sound "the same" because they use the same model"

Which is what I've said from the start - the V-Piano always sounds like a V-Piano. The "virtual showroom of concert grands" promised by Roland is fantasy.


The V1 presets come from the same family, but different from the V2 presets, just as Steinway grands cannot be made to sound like Blüthner (no matter what's done to the hammers etc), nor vice versa. I don't use the Vanguard settings much, but with careful customization, they can be made to sound like real pianos rather than just 'futuristic' ones as Roland says. But you can really go to town with the customizations and get a 'virtual showroom' - just that some of them won't actually sound like any acoustic piano you've ever heard. But saying that, I've heard some really weird-sounding acoustic pianos in my time; even the now-established Stuart & Sons grands from down under took my breath away with its individual tone (almost all fundamentals, even in the lowest bass) when I first heard it. And have you heard the gigantic Klavins Model 408 and 370?

I've got several settings that I use and all sound different to each other. My Yamaha CFX setting sounds nothing like my Blüthner one, nor my Borgato L282 one, nor my Steinway D one, nor my Bösendorfer Imperial. (They are far more dissimilar than say, the Piano 1 and Piano 2 settings on Yamaha AGs). They still sound like acoustic grands......


Friend, you've wandered way out of bounds here. What are you talking about?

those of us writhing around in the dirt down here on mother earth are talking about a sound-generating mathmatical model developed and owned by the Roland Corporation, or a contractor to the Roland Corporation. not Steinway, nor Bosendorfer/Yamaha. Period. I'm suggesting its one mathmatical algorithm/model that is tweaked to provide an emulation of the sound qualities of certain brands. Some may believe its 4 different models. If that is true then i stand corrected. Roland isn't elaborating on it. Either way Steinway nor its acoustic piano competitors had anything to do with it, unless their engineers worked in collaboration with Roland. If that happened I'd think Roland would advertise it as such.

Unless - as one of my tech guru friends liked to say of all technology development- its simply "FM, baby!" (f'ing Magic).


Edited by bfb (11/27/12 03:14 PM)
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1991600 - 11/27/12 04:44 PM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: bennevis]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I've got several settings that I use and all sound different to each other. My Yamaha CFX setting sounds nothing like my Blüthner one, nor my Borgato L282 one, nor my Steinway D one, nor my Bösendorfer Imperial. (They are far more dissimilar than say, the Piano 1 and Piano 2 settings on Yamaha AGs). They still sound like acoustic grands......


I would love to hear recordings of these . . .
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1995471 - 12/06/12 01:35 PM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: bennevis]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Well, let's start with the V2 settings. Roland, according to my brochures and websites, never mentioned 'Bösendorfer', they just hinted that they based the sound on a mellow 'European piano' beginning with B.


@bennevis,

I do believe that Scott Tibbs specifically mentions "Bosendorfer" being the model for the Vintage II presets, at the 16 second mark, here below:

[You only need to listen to the first 20 seconds of the video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

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#1995511 - 12/06/12 03:02 PM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: Melodialworks Music]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I've got several settings that I use and all sound different to each other. My Yamaha CFX setting sounds nothing like my Blüthner one, nor my Borgato L282 one, nor my Steinway D one, nor my Bösendorfer Imperial. (They are far more dissimilar than say, the Piano 1 and Piano 2 settings on Yamaha AGs). They still sound like acoustic grands......


I would love to hear recordings of these . . .


Until I actually get to hear the V-Piano sounding as described above, I simply DO NOT believe the claims being made. So, pony up and produce some audio demos, so we can be suitably impressed. I'm not going to hold by breath, though.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1995755 - 12/07/12 03:13 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Also, starting at the 1:15 mark, Scott Tibbs* plays his own "classical kind-of-a piece" on the "Bosendorfer" here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewq6NgYpxA

Does this really sound like a Bosendorfer?

Or, is this just another fairy tale?

*Extra note:

Don't like the unrealistic sounds, however, do enjoy Scott's playing... very nice demo!

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#1995804 - 12/07/12 07:18 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: pv88]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5054
I don't know who Mr Tibbs is or his connection to Roland - I just believe my own ears, and my own experience playing many Blüthners and Bösendorfers. Blüthners have a distinct plumminess and mellowness which you don't get in Bösendorfers generally. Have a listen to the recordings of the pianists I mentioned above, if you don't have access to the pianos themselves, and you'll see (i.e. hear) what I mean. And the Vintage Piano 2 and other V2 presets sound plummy and mellow, which equals Blüthner in my book.

Still, it's all just different piano sounds, whatever you choose to name them.....

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#1995810 - 12/07/12 07:25 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: Melodialworks Music]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5054
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I've got several settings that I use and all sound different to each other. My Yamaha CFX setting sounds nothing like my Blüthner one, nor my Borgato L282 one, nor my Steinway D one, nor my Bösendorfer Imperial. (They are far more dissimilar than say, the Piano 1 and Piano 2 settings on Yamaha AGs). They still sound like acoustic grands......


I would love to hear recordings of these . . .


Until I actually get to hear the V-Piano sounding as described above, I simply DO NOT believe the claims being made. So, pony up and produce some audio demos, so we can be suitably impressed. I'm not going to hold by breath, though.


I'd love to play the V-Piano for you in person grin so you can hear what I mean, but as for posting recordings here, you'll know from my previous posts that I don't have a computer at home (nor a cell phone nor i-whatever, nor that fruitythingy Blueberry...) and no idea how to post anything on a machine other than by typing it in. I did manage once with the help of a colleague at work to put a recording onto USB stick and then listening through it on the computer but it sounds totally different to what I hear on my headphones through the V-Piano. So, something's not right using this method....

But others (as well as pv88) have posted their recordings using various customizations, so listen to them instead.

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#1995856 - 12/07/12 08:59 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: bennevis]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
Originally Posted By: bennevis
So, something's not right using this method....
Maybe that's what's been missing in all these spirited V-piano discussions. The V is best for live playing and listening. They need to come out with V-recording system.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1995878 - 12/07/12 09:57 AM Re: Roland V-Piano & "Vintage II" presets [Re: bennevis]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: bennevis

But others (as well as pv88) have posted their recordings using various customizations, so listen to them instead.


I have listened to pretty much every V-Piano demo. I've never heard what you describe:

"I've got several settings that I use and all sound different to each other. My Yamaha CFX setting sounds nothing like my Blüthner one, nor my Borgato L282 one, nor my Steinway D one, nor my Bösendorfer Imperial. (They are far more dissimilar than say, the Piano 1 and Piano 2 settings on Yamaha AGs). They still sound like acoustic grands......"

Specific links would be appreciated.
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Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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