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Yes, I am sure this will work for you, PS88. In testimony, the prayer and fasting is proving to have a very positive effect for me.

C would be fine, Jeff. It's not a development because he's not taken material from A or B and developed it. It's essentially new material. I'd have tacked it on to then end of B myself.

But then I've been likened to a Zerg!

I will still refer to you as, Richard if OK.

Is there much more to discuss on this movement? I thought you may have been fascinated with my conclusion of the F# in M47 pulling us to G Major in M48. No eh?

Content is clearly coming from movement 1 exposition with the repeated phrase (first occurrence in M3 of Air Suisse) coming from M4 of exposition.

As we are in a different time signature, of course nothing lines up precisely, but there are clear similarities.

Your spot of the F# in M47 left me speechless. So much so that I said nothing!

Yes, I like the parallels with the first movement. Do you see M26-30 echoing M4 and M6? How do you feel about M41-48 being influenced by the left hand in M24-32 in the first movement?

I have something to say on Air Suisse, but I'm heading to work right now and it may have to wait until later.

On Sonatina #4 movement 3, Rondo, I thought 4 against 3 was a looooong way in my future, but here it is in the form of a RH turn against LH triplets, five times in mm.21, 22, and 24.

1 L R
2
3
4 R
5 L
6
7 R
8
9 L
10 R
11
12

Ah, I see. If I think of each triplet of the 3 in sixteenths, and play a dotted eighth rhythm against it with the 4, except a straight eighth in the middle, it will work out right .

Actually, I say that tongue in cheek, but it actually seems to be working out pretty well, to give me a first draft slow approximation, and tapping.

Playing it with notes, up to speed, at the piano, is going to be s whole different story.

I wouldn't even think of it as four against three. I got used to that stuff playing Haydn. The turns are just a quickly played figure.

Four against three, played slowly enough to need the right rhythm, I play against the phrase 'pass the golden butter'. For Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu it just comes. It's too fast to think about a phrase - you just feel it.

I don't see those parallels at all. Can you give some more details?

Separate from that, here is what I wanted to say about the Air Suisse:

The beginning, mm.1-24, is not four identical 6-bar phrases. It's a six bar phrase with simple harmony ending open on G, followed by a very similar, but slightly different, phrase, with slightly more complex harmony, ending closed on C. Those 12 measures are then repeated.

First six bars: C C C C C G
Second six bars: C C C, Dm7/C Bdim, Dm7/C Bdim, C

In roman numerals,
First six bars: I I I I I V
Second six bars: I I I, IIm7/7 VIIdim, IIm7/7 VIIdim, I

OK, the second six bars is not terribly complex -- it's just a variation on ii-V-I -- but honestly, almost anything will be more complex than I (a long time passes) V.

When this material returns at m.49, the first 12 measures return exactly as before. The second 12 measures changes though. Yes, it's jazzed up with grace notes and put up an octave and tricked out with a fancy sixteenth note accompaniment. But along with all those creative cosmetic variations, there's a real difference: the harmony changes. Now we get I V7 in almost every measure. The IIm is abandoned. This all leads up to the coda from mm.72-82 which is just I over and over.

I've started to detect that pretty much everything is V and I over and over, with occasional IIm and VIIdim. Anything else is a rare event. Not just here, but in all the sonatinas. I'm planning to tabulate the chords and the key changes to quantify this. (Just in case you didn't think I was enough of a lunatic .)

Thought it may have been something like that. From now on I will assume your silence means, I'm golden.



Yes, I do now.



I would say it is a safe bet. Yes, striking resemblance.

Thanks for pointing out though. I never would have seen these, by looking at the score and would have needed to go over many times before they came by listening as well. Only when comparing these specific sections to each other does it become evident.

But, perhaps more so with practice.

The grace notes in Air Suisse, are they played on the beat or before the beat? Does it make a difference if there is a slash through it or not, e.g. m. 10 vs. m.12?

And do these have an official name, other than grace note? Again, is it different for with slash vs. without?

Except I can't seem to reel the turn off properly and evenly in the same amount of time as the triplets. A trill or an appogiatura or a mordent would not be a problem (I don't think), but the turn just defeats me.


The problem with that, for me, is that I would need someone to recite the phrase for me with the correct rhythm. Now that I've worked out the rhythm, I know the precise rhythm for "pass the golden butter", but without knowing the rhythm, I might have said "golden" in the wrong rhythm. OK, for something as fast as the turn it may not be audible, but in slower examples I want to be sure I have a precise idea in mind.

Maybe it's just me that finds it quite satisfying to have the precise numbers worked out. Actually, I read about this in a book, so I know there's at least one other person who likes this method -- the book's author.

Backtracking a wee bit from the Air Suisse, I'm going to post on Sonatina 5, first movement.


I see D major beginning in m.13. The next phrase starts in m.16, but we are already in D major by then.

Comparing to the Recapitulation, I see mm.13-15 as a bridge, which is the term I'm using for the material that gets more changed in the recapitulation than the rest of the exposition. The material before it is in the tonic and the material after it is in the dominant (tonic, in the recapitulation). The bridge itself can have the switch from tonic to dominant any where in it.

It's not necessarily a transition: for example here, BANG, at m.13 you're in D major, no real transition or feeling of extended modulation. But it's identifiable to me, once I get to the recapitulation and can compare back to the exposition.

I call it the bridge in both the exposition and the recapitulation. Does this have an official name?

Sonatina #4 movement 3, Rondo
Whenever there is a difficulty with an ornament it is always a good idea to practise first without the ornament. This will give the intrinsic rhythm of the section.

In this instance you might try adding an upper mordent on the C, giving cdE - cdC just in RH. When you're happy with that, very slowly lift your hand letting the fourth finger linger on the E but finish a couple of inches above the keyboard. As your hand comes back down to play the cdC allow your third and fourth fingers to strike the D and E in passing, by dint of being closer to the keys than your index finger as you lower your hand rather than by a deliberate finger action.

When you're comfortable with the sound of the five notes play them deliberately rolling the fingers as you would by drumming them on the desk. When you can play the RH well enough add the left hand back.

Graces
When there's a single grace note with the tail crossed through it's an acciacatura and is played (on the beat) with (theoretically) no time. When there's no line through the tail, as in the Haydn sonata we looked at earlier, it's an appogiatura and shares the time with the following note, a grace and a crotchet being played as two quavers.

When there's more than one note as at the start of the Air Suisse, these are acciacature and their tails are not struck through. They're played on the beat but the principal note retains the accent.

Parallels in Movements 1 and 2
The A section of the Air Suisse making use of the figure MM3, 4 and 5 is reminiscent of the figure that begins each phrase in the first subject of the Presto.

The three note figure used in MM26-30 in the B section of the Air Suisse is reminiscent of the three note figure in MM5 and 7 of the Presto.

Measures 41-48 of the A.S. emphasising the double strike (especially if the LH rests and RH semis are ignored) recalls the double strike pattern used in LH in MM21-22 and similar through the second subject in the Presto.

The Air Suisse
MM3-5 & 9 are C but M10-11 are Dm7? The harmony in the first and third lines is simply tonic leading to an imperfect cadence on V. Lines two and four subtly introduce a rootless G7 to close the phrase with a final cadence on tonic. In the final iteration the closure is announced more definitively and a coda appended.

This is supposed to be simple; it's a ranz des vaches, a simple Alpine horn melody.

Listen to this one, the first four lines begin at 6:10, 6:24, 6:37 and 6:50. The second two at 7:05 and 7:25. Note the similarity (coincidental) of the three note figure here. Note also the changed harmony in the return of A and the impending finality of the tonic dominant alteration. (The music's quite boring after 8:45, you can stop the video there.)




The Presto
Yes, the first subject closes on the first beat of M16 and the second subject begins there. D major was heralded with the introduction of C# in M12 but it isn't established until the first beat of M16.

For a bridge passage I expect new material, a new phrase. When the final phrase of the first subject changes to the dominant, as here, there's no need for a bridge passage but the end of the phrase will be different in the recap. The end of the phrase may well be called a bridge passage but I have never understood that to be the case. Bridge or bridge passage is the technical term though I reserve bridge for the AABA song structure.

OK, I'll think of a new name. Maybe I'll just call it "Altered" in my personal notes.

Thanks for the notes about the turn, and grace notes. Acciaccatura. Appoggiatura. Acciaccatura. Appoggiatura. (Trying to drill it into my brain.) Both of these have more consonants than I would expect (trying to learn to spell them as well as play them). I think I may finally have a chance of remembering these, because recently I've been doing a lot of labelling of non-chord tones as appoggiaturas, so that gives me a hook to remember that that's the long grace note. If I knew more Italian, I would remember that (I think) acciaccatura means "crushed", and appoggiatura means (I think) "leaning", but apart from tempo markings mostly the only Italian I know is "la chiave, prego" ("The key, please" when asking for the key to the bathroom when in a bar).

Are you saying I shouldn't say it's in D major until m.16?

Thinking about key... can't you be in a new key before it gets established with a cadence? Was it Beethoven's Symphony #3 (or was it #7) which starts with 4 minutes of No Tonic Chord that you told me about, and finally there's a resolution? Surely during those 4 minutes the listener (at least the listener more astute than me) has a sense of the tonic that they're yearning for and keep getting denied? I know that's an example of starting out in a key, rather than a new key, but I would think the same principle applies.

I'm confused by the notes you name: "cdE - cdC" what is that? Also if I'm playing an upper mordent on a C, wouldn't that be C D C? so my fourth finger is lingering on D, not E? (I'm assuming that you mean also that my third -- middle -- finger is playing the center note of the turn, C.) A turn on C I would play as D C B C (barring any accidentals). So actually now I'm not even sure of the applicability of the upper mordent C D C.

I feel like I've somehow totally missed the exact steps of what you're trying to say, even as the general idea -- start simpler, then work up complexity in steps -- is clear.

I wouldn't be so bold!

I'm saying that it's heralded from M12 and it's established in M16. Whether we're in it between those two points is a matter of interpretation.

In M12 the C# is just an appogiatura, (the other kind, not the grace note). M13 is a very disguised A7 so the D major in M14 doesn't have a tonic ring to it. In M15 the Em begins the ii-V-I but can also be ambiguous as the relative minor in G. It's only when the A7 is heard at the end of M15 that we really expect D major.

Symphony #7 begins with 4 minutes of dominant seventh. There is a sense of impending tonic but V7 is not tonic. It belongs to a key but until we get the tonic are we really in it? I know I'm 'in it' when my wife gives me THAT look but that's another matter!

Sorry about that, I was looking at a completely different section!

Yes, start simply and work up is the idea.

The turn in the sonatina no 4.
I've been back to the original post now. Those turns are done on fingers 3,2,1 as opposed to 4,3,2 but the principle is the same. Lift the hand after the first F (M22) and position the fingers so that the third finger is lower than the index finger (not difficult) and drop the hand to strike the E with the thumb and the 3 and 2 fingers should have played the G and F on the way, then play the F again before the A.

Again play the measures without ornaments first, then get the ornaments right in RH alone.

I have them in M22, 23 and 25. Different measure numbers?

You have every right to feel frustrated because the skill demanded here, which is 4 against 3 as you have mentioned, is simply several levels of difficulty beyond the rest of the piece.

I think Richard meantioned Chopin's Fantasy Impromptu, and when you play music like that, your hands asborb the skill of 4 against 3. Why did Clementi throw in that skill in music that was otherwise fairly simple?

My answer: composer stupidiy. If he had taught his own music, day in and day out, he would have eventually rewritten that passage, IMHO.

I number the first full measure as 1, and the pickup measure doesn't have a number. I think this is how I've normally seen people numbering on this thread. Should I be numbering from the pickup measure as 1? And should we agree how we'll do it on this thread (or maybe everyone else is doing it that way already and I haven't noticed)?

You have the right numbers but we've been using Greener's numbered score for this movement. He's numbered the pickup as 1.

As long as you know where you are, huh?