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I am loath to give a name to the first chord in M22 but if you're going to call it Db without a Db in the chord you might mention in parentheses that it's rootless. If it is Db the other notes are 3, 5, 7 and 13 (can't be 6th if 7th is present) so that makes it a rootless Db13.
The alternatives of Ab sus2 + 6 (1, 2, 5, 6), Bb 11b5 (1, 4, b5, 7) or Eb sus4 b9 (1, 4, 5, b9) are equally uncomfortable. I guess Fb 11 ((1, 3, 7, 11) is a feasible alternative.
I cannot disagree with the second two chords in that measure, of course, as I proposed them.
So we're both Londoners born half a world apart! Enjoy the birthday bash.
ETA: That's a minor 13th; Fb is b3! Db minor 13. But I think I'm preferring Fb 11 because of the next chord, Fb add 11.
In a tie, the accidental persists from the first note to the second note of the tie, even if the tie crosses a bar line, unless something is explicitly written to cancel the accidental.
Thanks PS88. Perhaps this should have been obvious to me, but was not. So this Ties up a loose end.
Ok, here is the final list then as I am not able to further edit what was previously posted. Hope OK now.
So we're both Londoners born half a world apart! Enjoy the birthday bash.
Yes indeed (Londoners - I was born their but raised in Lambeth Ontario and I know England has one of those too) and closer then it otherwise appear. All the GP's are from England and Whiffy was born in Erith between Woolwich and Dartford. Her Mom still resides in Whistable.
Party though was for Macie who was adopted from Wuhan China in 2004 (10 years old now, Yippee.) It's a long story ... my life is complex .
I'm trying to learn (actually play) this thing as fast as I'm spewing out the chords. Seeing as it is not actually a key change at M29, but rather a convenience of notation, I must say it certainly isn't very convenient for me. It's only a few bars I wish they just stayed there. Oh well, I guess they wanted to challenge my reading comprehension.
I gave this piece a listen again, and I just cannot find any interest in it to listen to it, although there is technical interest as far as analyzing it. Do you (Greener, Richard, keystring) like this piece, and if so, why?
Yes, I do actually. I like the sound of the chord changes and they are also fun to play. Plus it is sad to me, and I like sad
Plus, it is giving me ideas of what to do with chords that I had never thought about. For example I love what he does with moving one note in right and left hand at M17-M18,M19-M20 M25-M26, M27-M28.
I don't think it will ever be a show piece, or one my audience will much enjoy listening to (with a few rare exceptions) but so far, I quite enjoy it for myself.
Also fine if you would prefer to move along though. I do not expect to learn these pieces as fast as we can analyze.
I gave this piece a listen again, and I just cannot find any interest in it to listen to it, although there is technical interest as far as analyzing it. Do you (Greener, Richard, keystring) like this piece, and if so, why?
Chose it. Love it.
Remember the Chopin Prelude, Adele and the Tingle Factor?
Soft, gentle opening. Melodic appoggiaturas. Enharmonic changes (using non-diatonic harmony). Sudden dynamic changes (e.g. M7, M10). Sudden textural changes (e.g. single note melody in M20-23). Sudden rhythmic change (e.g M65-69) New or unprepared harmonies (e.g. M31).
It's just full of heart rending emotion and evokes passion.
I gave this piece a listen again, and I just cannot find any interest in it to listen to it, although there is technical interest as far as analyzing it. Do you (Greener, Richard, keystring) like this piece, and if so, why?
Chose it. Love it.
Another observation now;
Working through the key change at M40. This is the stuff that really excites me about playing music. What can I say, it is a gorgeous key change and I feel it develop under my fingers as I start getting the notes/chords correct. Not sure how to put it, but it is the type of stuff that makes me keep practicing until I can really play it right.
Greener and Richard, thanks for talking about what you like about this piece. If we liken a piece to a story, here is the story I hear in it: "blah blah blah." Adele and the Tingle Factor is not producing anything for me in this one.
Oddly, when I hum the beginning to myself from what I remember (or do I mean recall ) of it from my own inept stabs at it, I like it better than I liked listening to the recording. And when I was working on analysing the harmony for the Trio, it seemed like a lovely melodic section, but when I listen to that part in the recording posted in this thread, it's back to "blah blah blah".
M34 Reading from the bass upwards we have E-C#-G-A# so a dim 7 on any of those letters and a dim 7 is always a 7b9 of a note one major third below any of those notes. In this case I'd plump for a dominant minor ninth on A or A7b9 resolving to E
M35 Reading from the bass upwards again we have E-A-C-D#-A and ignoring the graces that gives me A minor add 11. This changes between beats two and three to E-B-B-D#-G# or E major 7 and beat three is E-C-A-D#-F# which gives me, er, a headache. I'd call this Am6 with D# (an augmented fourth).
M40 F flat major, enharmonic E major so no key or chord change just a key signature change.
M42 is Eb sus 4 M43 is Eb. The three quavers at the end of the measure have no harmony notes.
M44 Reading from the bass up, Eb-F-Ab-Db-F-Ab-Db giving Db add 9
M47/48 Ab-C-F = F minor M50 G-Bb-Db-F = G min 7b5 M52 Ab7 (no 5) M53 Eb7 ( E flat 7)
when I hum the beginning to myself...I like it better than I liked listening to the recording
Carry on humming!
We've been on this piece a while but Jeff is likely to be here a little longer.
We don't want you to be spending time on something of no interest.
Options: 1) Sit this one out and practise your Mendelssohn 2) Just listen to the other five moments and try to pick up Schubert's language 3) Pick anything by Schubert you do like and analyse that instead.
While we're on songs without words you might listen to the G flat Impromptu and see where Mendelssohn got his ideas from.
I sensed I may be in trouble with some of this but did not think this much;
Originally Posted by zrtf90
M34 Reading from the bass upwards we have E-C#-G-A# so a dim 7 on any of those letters and a dim 7 is always a 7b9 of a note one major third below any of those notes. In this case I'd plump for a dominant minor ninth on A or A7b9 resolving to E
That is cool to know. OK, I like A7b9
Originally Posted by zrtf90
M35 Reading from the bass upwards again we have E-A-C-D#-A and ignoring the graces that gives me A minor add 11. This changes between beats two and three to E-B-B-D#-G# or E major 7 and beat three is E-C-A-D#-F# which gives me, er, a headache. I'd call this Am6 with D# (an augmented fourth).
Not sure were I got a C# anything. Will correct to +4
Originally Posted by zrtf90
M40 F flat major, enharmonic E major so no key or chord change just a key signature change.
M42 is Eb sus 4 M43 is Eb. The three quavers at the end of the measure have no harmony notes.
M44 Reading from the bass up, Eb-F-Ab-Db-F-Ab-Db giving Db add 9
check
Originally Posted by zrtf90
M47/48 Ab-C-F = F minor M50 G-Bb-Db-F = G min 7b5 M52 Ab7 (no 5) M53 Eb7 ( E flat 7)
For M50 I was thinking about Gm7b5, but I do not believe I have tried a -5 or augmented anything in your presence since the moonlight sonata. So, glad to see we are opening the flood gates now
Jeff, I'm sorry about the Ab. I definitely have Ab, Eb and Db on the back of my envelope but I find no such chord in this piece. I know I used it today in analysis but I can't find where. I do apologise.
No problem, although it does make me double, trippple and quadruple check whenever I am challenging one of your selections .
I clearly had some issues with this section, but have some better ideas of things to consider now when these chords are looking overly convoluted.
I am only planning to continue with chords up to the Trio and should be able to able to finish by tomorrow (need to run soon today.) It seems PianoStudent and perhaps others may be anxious to move along. So, please advise if you want me to prepare another piece.
Question though: From M17 to M47 we have moved through Ab Minor, E Major and are now back in Ab Major. Although the key changes did not occur where the signature changes are indicated on the score, I believe these (what's the word ... modulations) did occur, correct? Is it important to understand exactly where/when these occurred, or OK to just understand we moved through them. That is, assuming of course I have them correct in the first place.
Yes, we passed through those keys and that's all you need concern yourself with. We already discussed in an earlier piece that it isn't always clear-cut especially when a final cadence in a new key isn't always followed by a phrase starting in that new key.
Since we are dealing with RN's here the base key need not concern us as far as a chord's functionality is concerned. We saw the dominant minor ninth earlier (clearly acting as a dominant), and when we went into the minor mode of Ab and its subdominant (Fb) it became expedient to change to the enharmonic E major and ITS related chords. Had he written this piece in G major and modulated to G minor (2 flats) the subdominant would then have been C and he wouldn't have had to change the key sig. at all. (If only he'd listened to me! )
The actual chord and it's implication can be deduced from the chords surrounding it and you can see by now where phrases begin and end.
The trio doesn't have as much harmonic splendour as this current section and you seem to have profited from what you've examined so I've no objection to moving along after we complete this section if there's no-one else wanting to stay.
Our next stop is Haydn's sonata in C major Hob. XVI/50.
There's one curious chord in the trio I want to ask about. I'll go print out (yet another!) copy of this and see if I can find it. If I don't get my question asked tonight, feel free to go on to Haydn.
M34 Reading from the bass upwards we have E-C#-G-A# so a dim 7 on any of those letters and a dim 7 is always a 7b9 of a note one major third below any of those notes. In this case I'd plump for a dominant minor ninth on A or A7b9 resolving to E.
DISCLAIMER: I have not been following this thread, but saw the Title pop to the top of the Beginner's Forum, and thought I would simply read what you folks are doing with analysis.
Do I understand the above-captioned quote correctly? Diminished seventh chords are ALWAYS analyzed as something else, whose root does not reside in the chord itself?
(Always learning . . .) Ed
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.
) of it from my own inept stabs at it, I like it better than I liked listening to the recording. And when I was working on analysing the harmony for the Trio, it seemed like a lovely melodic section, but when I listen to that part in the recording posted in this thread, it's back to "blah blah blah".