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Topic Options
#1994593 - 12/04/12 11:03 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5926
Originally Posted By: Ralph
This thread is going a little astray, but I can't help but to think about those great pianists that could not perform in public such as Glenn Gould and even Rachmaninov and wonder if they lacked the narcissistic qualities necessary for a concert career.


Sometimes one wonders how (and why) pianists who suffer terribly from nerves keep giving concerts, e.g. Clifford Curzon. You only have to listen to his two live recordings of the Liszt Sonata (compare them to his studio recording made at the same time) to hear what happens. But as to whether he was narcissistic or egoistic.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1994599 - 12/04/12 11:30 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: wr]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: wr


In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.


That's silly. Pogorelich himself doesn't strike me as narcissistic, from what I know of him he seems like a quite nice and interesting chap.

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#1994604 - 12/04/12 11:39 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: bennevis]
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 9016
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Sometimes one wonders how (and why) pianists who suffer terribly from nerves keep giving concerts, e.g. Clifford Curzon. You only have to listen to his two live recordings of the Liszt Sonata (compare them to his studio recording made at the same time) to hear what happens. But as to whether he was narcissistic or egoistic.....

From what I have read about Curzon, neither word would seem applicable.

Curzon evidently had problems with nerves in the studio as well. Reportedly, the opening of the 3rd movement of the Decca Brahms D minor required many, many takes before he could get it down accurately. Otherwise, the recording is something of a classic. And we certainly know what a fine chamber musician Curzon was.
_________________________
Jason

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#1994647 - 12/04/12 01:23 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3953
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional

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#1995779 - 12/07/12 05:38 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Orange Soda King]
asthecrowflies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 122
Loc: London, Cambridge, San Francis...
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
^ ^ My all time favorite Gaspard!!


+1. The texture of his right hand playing is magical. I still prefer Martha's Scarbo though.
_________________________
Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus

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#1995780 - 12/07/12 05:39 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: ando]
asthecrowflies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 122
Loc: London, Cambridge, San Francis...
Originally Posted By: ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.
_________________________
Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus

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#1995781 - 12/07/12 05:57 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: asthecrowflies]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3953
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: asthecrowflies
Originally Posted By: ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.


Yikes, sounds like you went through some tough times!

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#1995799 - 12/07/12 06:59 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: ando]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: asthecrowflies
Originally Posted By: ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.




Yikes, sounds like you went through some tough times!


What would the "ex-es" say? Maybe it's they who went through some hard times!

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#1995801 - 12/07/12 07:06 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: France
As for "Gaspard dans la nuit", it must be heard live in a hall. It is physical, three-dimensional, no recording can bring this out no matter the player and I am indifferent to all that I have heard. I have been absolutely spellbound by it in concert on several occasions.

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#1995830 - 12/07/12 08:12 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: landorrano]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8195
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: wr


In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.


That's silly. Pogorelich himself doesn't strike me as narcissistic, from what I know of him he seems like a quite nice and interesting chap.


There's no rule that says that narcissists can't be nice, nor interesting. In fact, the best narcissists probably flatter themselves over having those very qualities.

But to qualify just a little - when I wrote that, I was thinking of performers specifically in their role as performers, rather than about their entire 24/7 persona.

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#1995834 - 12/07/12 08:21 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: ando]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8195
Originally Posted By: ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



"Narcissist" as a usage predates the invention of "narcissistic personality disorder" by quite a while, I think, and they aren't the same thing. If I think performers are, pretty much by definition, narcissists, it doesn't mean I think they all have the clinical disorder. Of course, they might have it, but that's not what I was saying.

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#1995889 - 12/07/12 10:33 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: wr]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2509
Loc: France
I think the opposite as you, WR. An artist cannot be narcissistic or egoistic when he is playing, even if he is in "real life". For the time of a subject and a counter-subject he is worlds beyond that.

Originally Posted By: wr
In fact, the best narcissists probably flatter themselves over having those very qualities.


You've really got it in for those poor spring flowers! smile

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