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I agree with the beethoven. A late sonata requires a great deal of musicianship. I also believe something like the prokofiev 7 would do. It's so easy for that piece to become just a muddle of notes.

Bach Invention No. 14 in B-flat Major. Very telling, musically and technically, especially in the case of those who think it's too easy.

That's what I was thinking. I remember hearing a story about a young Liszt playing for an old Beethoven. As the story goes, Liszt played a bunch of techincally brilliant pieces and Beethoven looked at him rather bored and exasperated and said "can you play a Bach fugue?" I don't know if this storys true, but it says a lot.

For more modern pieces, I think Jeux d'eau is a good measuring stick. It's both technically and musically challenging.

I don't think that story is true.

Beethoven 110

I just finished reading Alan walkers 1st volume of liszt biography - although the story has been sensationalized, as far as we know Lizst did indeed meet Beethoven and receive a sort of "approval" as an artist, and I believe it was when he played a bach fugue and then transposed it at Beethoven's command. I'd have to pull out the biography to check that though, but I remember that there are indeed parts of that which are true.

I'll put in my vote for a Beethoven sonata. Not necessarily a late one... some of the early ones are quite challenging.

Sorry, I should have expanded on that more. Walker provides Liszt's account of the event given later to one of his students. Czerny had arranged the meeting although Beethoven was initially resistant given his "repugnance to infant prodigies" (Liszt was eleven at the time). Liszt says " I first played a short piece by Ries. When I had finished, Beethoven asked me whether I could play a Bach fugue. I chose the C-minor Fugue from the WTC. 'And could you also transpose the fugue at once into another key?" Beethoven asked me. Fortunately I was able to do so". ... After this Beethoven smiles at him, pats his head, and then Liszt asks if he can play LvB's first movement of the C-major concerto for him. After this, Beethoven kisses him on the forehead.

So yes, he asked him to play a fugue, but there is no indication in this version that Liszt had played a lot of shallow flashy pieces and that Beethoven had reacted out of irritation to what he played. It sounds as if he wanted to see if Liszt could play and then immediately transpose a fugue on demand-- quite a test for an 11 year old. Liszt passed it.

I agree. I think just about anything can be used. Heck, a pianist's ability to turn a C-major scale into something musical says a lot about their ability and musicianship.

Alright, I didn't know if you were saying the whole encounter was untrue or not! Good clarification.

I still put my vote in for a fugue.

But I guess anything can do as well, because you can tell a good pianist pretty darn quickly no matter what they're playing.

Two or Three contrasting chopin etudes

Pretty much anything would work, and it doesn't even have to be something like Beethoven. Just like how musicians often specialize in a the works of a few composers or schools, I don't think that being unable to play Bach of Mozart is really indicative of a bad pianist.

I support this statement 100%. I think a lot of diversified playing is more indicative of musicianship, but having a specialty does not necessarily mean you cannot be a very talented pianist.

Kuan- I'm interested in your thoughts here. Would you say the ability to play many different styles/periods lends itself to better musicianship? And does that possibly indicate a higher level of pianism? (I actually separated the two until I started writing my response, but now I'm not as sure..)

True, it's indicative of a jazz pianist !

Chopin Scherzo No. 1

my late, great teacher once said that all the technique a pianist needed was contained in the chopin etudes and bach preludes & fugues. pick one...

Does it mean that by learning Chopin and Bach you also learn how to play Ligeti, Murail and Stockhausen ?

I would say, personally, that if you can master all the Chopin Etudes & at least a number of the P&F's, particularly the more difficult fugues, you should have the acquired technique and knowledge of how to learn difficult works in order to play most anything. Notice the italics. I'm not saying this is a sure, but if you truly can master those pieces, you should have the ability to learn anything [I'm not saying this will make the likes of Ligeti & others easy for you, they're incredibly difficult, but by that point you should have the knowledge of how to break apart a piece and learn technical difficulties.]

Of course, I'm not anywhere near that point, so I could be very wrong.

I think it certainly is good because it shows a really broad understanding of different musical styles. But it's not a bad thing to be a specialist!

I think it's a good indicator of musicianship, not so much about pianism. Playing Medtner or the Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues requires an understanding of counterpoint and the interplay between voices in the same way that Bach does, but the pianistic technique is really quite different. Certainly, IMO, a specialist in the romantics and the modern schools would have a higher level of pianism than a specialist in the Baroque and Classical periods due to the leaps in technique development.

But at the end of the day, a specialist in the Romantics (like Horowitz) who's more weak at the classics and baroque styles can still be considered a very competent musician and pianist.

To try and answer my own thread I'd say that any piece with following characteristics would do:

1. composed by a great composer, preferably from Classical period through mid 20th century(Bach or contemporary perhaps requiring somewhat more specialized skills that may not transfer so clearly to more commonly played literature)
2. requires virtuoso technique(otherwise how could one evaluate the pianist's technique?)
3. generally considered to be a masterpiece(mostly guarantees the piece can be used to judge the pianist's musicianship and offer the greatest musical challenges)
4. of considerable length(longer works having organizational difficulties that often don't appear in shorter ones and a greater opportunity to have a variety of difficulties)

So based on the above there are certainly a very long list of possible pieces. A few examples:

For Beethoven:any of the most difficult half of his Sonatas, any of the major variation sets

For Schumann: any of his major works e.g. Davidsbundler, any of the Sonatas, Carnaval, Symphonic Etudes, Fantasy in C, Kreisleriana, Fantasy Pieces, etc.

Of course, any piece can offer some insight into a pianist's ability, but I was interested in pieces that can be used to make the best judgement.

Does anyone know some other examples besides the ones I mentioned in my OP that have been used as required pieces in competitions(not talking about some required contemporary piece here) or as required pieces for auditions?