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#1991605 - 11/27/12 04:59 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I am in Chicago right now. I took the time to go and look at this piano with a granite bridge. Here is "MY opinion of it."

I listened to it carefully. I played every single note many times going up and down the scale listening closely, how a technician would listen, listening to the sound, the tone, the evenness of the tone and the projection of the tone, and of the piano itself all of which I thought was lacking. I listened to the power from the hammers and thought that too was lacking.

I found erroneous nasally nasty sounds and buzzes here and there.

The over all tone of the piano was not even, especially when the bass turns into the tenor. I thought there was a very noticeable clash from the bass going into the tenor. Not a nice, smooth evenness as it enters the tenor section.

Not to mention, the piano was out of tune.

I was most unimpressed with the fact that the dampers go all the way up to C8! Making it virtually impossible to use mutes of any kind up in that section of the piano. The dampers are smack dab in the way up there. It would be miserable to tune up there.

I was not impressed at all with this piano. I did not think it sustained any better with a granite bridge.

Also, many of the bass dampers are not shutting off.

Over all? I was not in the LEAST impressed.

Again, that is my personal opinion of that piano.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1991666 - 11/27/12 07:37 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1890
Loc: Philadelphia area
Thanks for the report Jerry.

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#1991741 - 11/27/12 10:41 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3833
So the tone was somewhere between a ROCK and a HARD PLACE? hehee
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1991833 - 11/28/12 06:28 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Bob]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Bob
So the tone was somewhere between a ROCK and a HARD PLACE? hehee


Ok now that was funny! laugh
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1993418 - 12/01/12 10:15 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Robert Di Santo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 92
Loc: United States
Jerry,

This is a Indonesian made piano... REMEMBER?? 1st off, thank you for taking your time to observe this new cutting edge technology. Were you expecting the performance of a high end Yamaha or another quality piano? This prototype was never intended to be that in any way, That's why it is called a PROTOTYPE.

If the identical was present you would hear the significant difference in improvement... either way, YOU, of a select few will always see the black dot on the white pc. of paper no matter.. The piano is not there because it doesn't work it is there because it does, and that has been clarified by many folks starting with the owner of the Pianoforte. Are you saying Thomas is wrong along with Richard Bosworth ? I have my opinion as you do, and you're inaccurate and not understanding the purpose of this project and probably never will.... Happy Holidays !!! Stonetone® Music of the Earth®


Edited by Robert Di Santo (12/01/12 10:16 PM)
_________________________
Robert B. Di Santo
StoneTone®
Music of the earth®

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#1993442 - 12/01/12 11:49 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
I have my opinion as you do, and you're inaccurate and not understanding the purpose of this project and probably never will.... Happy Holidays !!! Stonetone® Music of the Earth®
?????

I don't think one person's opinion is more valid than another's, and I see this kind of response as an intolerant reaction, which is not helpful for your cause.

Mr. Di Santo, you surely understand that you are fighting a bit of an uphill battle with your concept. The musical instrument world is somewhat conservative. Many good pianos inventions have failed to break through on the market - not because of any lack of merit, but because they could not muster the critical mass required to become mainstream or even enter into the mainstream. I believe capturing hearts and minds is key here. Antagonism will only lead to closed minds and closed doors.

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
...I was most unimpressed with the fact that the dampers go all the way up to C8!..
Jerry - I have to disagree with you here. I am extremely curious how they managed to install dampers up in the top treble. Normally there is no space at all up there for damper wires because the hammer arc is so close to the belly rail. Did you see how they did that?
PS: I realize that your "being unimpressed" had to do more with servicing the piano....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1993445 - 12/01/12 11:56 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
"prototype" comes from the greek.... "proto">first and "typos">impression. I believe Jerry gave us his. I'm not sure why an Indonesian piano was chosen for a first impression, scape goat maybe? I wouldn't think a new concept like this would be at its full potential unless it was voiced properly afterwards.

Jerry, do you think some good voicing could better blend the piano more evenly?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1993464 - 12/02/12 12:46 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Jerry,

This is a Indonesian made piano... REMEMBER?? So what? 1st off, thank you for taking your time to observe this new cutting edge technology. Were you expecting the performance of a high end Yamaha or another quality piano? This prototype was never intended to be that in any way, That's why it is called a PROTOTYPE.

If the identical was present you would hear the significant difference in improvement... either way, YOU, of a select few will always see the black dot on the white pc. of paper no matter.. The piano is not there because it doesn't work it is there because it does, and that has been clarified by many folks starting with the owner of the Pianoforte. Are you saying Thomas is wrong along with Richard Bosworth ? I have my opinion as you do, and you're inaccurate and not understanding the purpose of this project and probably never will.... Happy Holidays !!! Stonetone® Music of the Earth®


If you are trying to impress me or anyone here with your pianos I would think you would stop using excuses and stop treating us as if we were fools.

I stand by what I stated in my original posts with my opinion of it. If you don't like it, well, tough. If you want respect, give it. Otherwise, expect what you'll get in return.

How do you expect someone for example to tune the piano way up by C 8 with those dampers in the way?

I have a very open mind with almost all things. I had a very open mind going into look at this piano. I was actually looking forward to seeing it. However, I walked away with a different opinion than I thought I would have.

I most certainly was not expecting to hear buzzing and other erroneous sounds that it should not have regardless of make or model or quality. Fortunately, their technician was there with me and also heard what I heard.

Yes Jurgen,

All of the strings from A-0 to C-8 have dampers on them. smile I did not remove the action to look at it so can't tell you how they are in there. I wasn't about to "touch the thing." Don't want to be blamed for something you know... smile

You bet Emmery. A good tuning and a good voicing would most certainly improve the quality and evenness of the "tone." I plucked the strings and there is certainly room for a great improvement in that area. I was just quite surprised that the piano was not more evenly voiced when I got there. I would think that it would be. Why not try to get the best out of any prototype... wink
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1993471 - 12/02/12 01:02 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1890
Loc: Philadelphia area
Is there an explanation for the 88 dampers?

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#1993562 - 12/02/12 09:09 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
The only thing I know about it is that the technician in the store told me that there is so much additional sustained (excessive) ring through in the treble where dampers normally stop that in order to supress it enough, they had to put dampers all the way up to the top.

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1994115 - 12/03/12 12:10 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Robert Di Santo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 92
Loc: United States
The only "NEW" piano I Modified so far was the Story & Clark because I wanted to see how much better a new crown of the soundboard from a crude entry level piano worked compared to all of the previous pianos I've done that were all been between 40 to 100+ yrs old. Testing several different models, sizes,etc. can get very costly unlike the guitars I've already done. We will be modifying a New high end piano that may be introduced @ the next piano function around the summertime in Chicago.

There is well enough scientific data to support Modifying a NEW 100k + piano as our next prototype. The calculation of all the previous unknowns have been addressed. This next project will focus on having a Quality piano modified with the exact stock model side by side to compare the improvement. At that time, all you folks will have your fill, and so will I.. Have a nice day everyone.
_________________________
Robert B. Di Santo
StoneTone®
Music of the earth®

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#1994119 - 12/03/12 12:19 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Robert Di Santo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 92
Loc: United States
Also, I am not a [Piano Technician] so any and all questions about the dampers, voicing or related technician topics, feel free to call Dan Koehler owner of Naples Piano Company to ask him any question. Have an hour to spare? He Loves to discuss this topic... 239.404.8007
_________________________
Robert B. Di Santo
StoneTone®
Music of the earth®

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#1994141 - 12/03/12 12:56 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 129
Loc: Omaha, NE
Would it be possible for him to come on here and respond to questions? That way he could address multiple questions from the group, and avoid any unintentional misinterpretations from someone calling him and then relaying his answers to the rest of us.
_________________________
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Piano Technician
Associate Member, PTG

ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#1994718 - 12/04/12 05:24 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Robert Di Santo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 92
Loc: United States
Yes, Dans been made aware of his participation on this topic. Dan travels allot picking up & delivering pianos throughout the US and he's not always available but should post shortly so all of you can converse with him in the same piano/technician dialogue so he can answer your questions.
_________________________
Robert B. Di Santo
StoneTone®
Music of the earth®

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#1994838 - 12/05/12 01:44 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Yeah, the whole insulting anyone who offers a less-than-favorable critique really makes me want to avoid ever having anything to do with this.

Jerry, thanks for taking the time to check it out and share your impressions.

It sounds like this is creating a new can of worms more than anything else.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1994941 - 12/05/12 09:32 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: OperaTenor]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Yeah, the whole insulting anyone who offers a less-than-favorable critique really makes me want to avoid ever having anything to do with this.


The reason many of us are not involved in this thread at all.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1995225 - 12/05/12 09:13 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2034
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Yeah, the whole insulting anyone who offers a less-than-favorable critique really makes me want to avoid ever having anything to do with this.


The reason many of us are not involved in this thread at all.
Yup. Time will sort out what works and what doesn't. Thanks for sharing what you learned first-hand, Jerry.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1995335 - 12/06/12 07:36 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Daniel Koehler Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Naples, FL
Hello to all who followed this thread... There is not short answer so this is long.

I am the owner of Naples Piano Company Daniel Koehler, and also the owner of the Story & Clark piano that has granite in it. Also I own "exclusive rights" to this granite technology in used pianos. I also own some of the new licensing agreement to a manufacturer(s) that will someday take that part on and continue the story we have begun.

This is a hard letter to write since I do NOT support the crass treatment you all received and style that has been unjustly delivered. This is why artists need to have someone represent their product that doesn't take offense. My opinion is that they treat this invention like you insulted their child on the play ground and a "defense mechanism" is in place. There is no way I can keep it secret about my strained relationship with the inventor as you have seen why in these previous statements throughout this long interchange which he chose to put forth, and as you can see I cannot control this and constantly felt I was put in a position to do damage control. Now while the delivery of this technology took a unfortunate turn, and frankly what I was afraid would happen when we went into the public view... I will concentrate on what is good instead, because arguing and bickering just grows to higher levels and the byproduct is that nothing gets accomplished but a lot of hurt feelings and extremely counterproductive not to mention a huge waste of time. I like to get things done so I will move on.

The story actually starts with the test prototype where we put 15 notes in the center of an old piano just to see if this thing worked, which I insisted we do before I invest more on an expensive piano. After that was finished I originally thought the thing failed because it kept sustaining and we lost most of the percussive hit. I had two pianists test this with both of them having doctorates in music, and much to my surprise they loved it! Why? Because it sustained and allowed them to play slowly and gave them more control to move to the next note when they wanted to, and not controlled by the piano decay demanding them to move. In essence they could get more artistic with expression and not constantly having to push the sustain to a knifes edge trying to linger in the moment, and everyone likes control! You literally could sight read slowly through a new piece of music and not lose your place because the sustain gives you more time to get your next fingering positions ready as the music was still in your head. Talk about an aid to new or beginner students.

I personally do welcome comments whether flattering or not, as I really do rely on that feed back because now is the time to change things while we are still in the prototype stage. I want to thank you all for any comment as I would love to change things for the better, and you all are helping me to do that. Thank you!

The first full piano prototype is the Baldwin 6'3" grand with granite built in the early 1900's. This piano is very mellow just like you would expect a Baldwin with good hammers to be, and with granite that good sound sustains longer. My data suggests that we sustain the notes longer by 1 octave more. It's not just about sustain length in time but about the energy not instantly dying off. Why is this important? The harmonics will interact more with other notes if they don't fall off fast. Most tuners out there should say that an 100 year old piano without a crown in the sound board would sound terrible because of lack of sustain. With this technology we have an over abundance of sustain, and frankly don't even need to curve the sound board to get projection of energy or sustain. We could bring back the Mahogany sound board and out sustain the wood bridge spruce pianos if we wanted. Early on we suggested plywood as an example of something to try just for kicks. I literally can take any old beat up piano and make it wonderful sounding (very handy with family heirlooms), and I proved that on this Baldwin with granite because it was owned by a school and really beat up over the years, and I thought to myself nothing can make this piano sound good again. Mr. Robert Di Santo's invention did prove to me that it works and the piano didn't just sound good but excelled beyond even my highest desires. This Baldwin granite has very powerful bass and totally different from the next prototype as the bridge mimic's the factory in dimensions.

The second full prototype some of you seen at the pianoforte dealerships in Chicago, which Mr. Thomas Zoells so graciously took on this technology to display it before it was perfected, which helps educate the public on what is up and coming, as his heart is truly in music propagation which is evident by this gesture for us. This piano is suppose to show us what we can do with an entry level piano that many get sold industry wide. Having a crown in the sound board did increased the sustain, but by doubling the granite in a pyramid elongated shape and softer wood cabinetry the energy vibrates into the cabinetry more. I was afraid that the finish might vibrate off! Luckily that didn't happen. This interesting prototype redefined enjoyment in an unexpected way.

First of all your concerns are valid on some of the items I read, and especially tuning in the last few notes (key 86 through 88) where I put dampers up there. For over a year I did not put 20 extra dampers up there until one pianist complained that someone was whistling in the background, and it ended up being the treble notes sustaining. It's not that I didn't know it needed dampers, but I was waiting for a negative response and someone that didn't like it which demanded that I put them on, which finally that did happen. Everyone was so amazed at the sustain that they were putting up with extra high harmonic ring and didn't want to hurt my feelings I'm sure. A true friend will tell you the truth nicely and that is how the dampers were instigated. If I put them on originally nothing is proved. By pianists complaining I have proof that it is a problem. I've done this on a lot of test as I wait till someone complains and then I spend weeks thinking of how I can change that item. This dampers situation turned out to be very difficult to get a hold of since I called around to everyone I thought of kept mentioning back to me that there are only 72 dampers manufactured currently on the best pianos, and all 88 keys does not exist. Being pressure to finish them up in 1 month time... I chose to use some old piano dampers and cut them up to make them fit. In no way are they perfect but just functional. I had to make an extended tray and also a top guide, and lets just say I had more fun then I wanted! I have located a manufacturer now that said they would make all 88 for me, and eventually when this technology is license to a manufacturer they will design the pianos with them from the ground up. While the last 3 strings are difficult to tune I found it best to raise the dampers and put a rubber mute in them, and this while difficult does get the job done. On the flip side I did find it easier to tune the treble because it sustains longer and I can lock it in better. There also should be more tone reflected back in a concert halls that you hear an echo, and instead of that annoying click you usually hear there should be some tone with it. I do like tuning in the treble with granite because there is little "after decay" so it solved the long standing issue of tuning to the hit or decay of the hit, which is noticed more the higher you go in the treble, and of course the less quality the more this shows up.

Tone wise the piano does representative the instrument manufacturers original sound, but by putting granite in it does allow less fall off of the initial hit and it clearly does sustain longer then it did before granite was installed, which is easily represented in regular sound graph's, but like one pianist put it "you just made an inexpensive piano's sound just sustain longer". While that is true... it also has amazed me that I prefer the inexpensive made Story & Clark (Indonesian made) piano with granite over the Baldwin with granite even though the quality of tone is better on the Baldwin. I have worked for 2 Baldwin dealerships in my past and I like Baldwin's a lot... but much to my surprise I will take a less quality tone if more sustain is added, and because the new Story & Clark with granite has a crown in the sound board it does sustain longer then the Baldwin that basically does not. If I re-crowned the old Baldwin's sound board I would choose the Baldwin naturally.

The 3rd prototype chosen is a 9 foot concert Baldwin built back in the 60's. This piano will tell us how far the technology will go on a standard 9 foot length concert piano as we will be doing the other end of the pianos length. The action is "up to speed" as this one could be used in concerts, whereas the other two were not made for that venue originally. This piano has two bridges with a connecting point between them, and it's an unknown what will happen if the bass vibrations are allowed to travel far up the treble bridge. For now it might be best to keep them separate and when money is not an issue try one connected and see what will happen.

As most of you can see there are too many unknowns, and I just mentioned a couple things we are dealing with. I didn't even mention what happens if we add more pressure, which has caused people to laugh, cry, and every emotion in between when certain songs were played. The harmonics seem to be felt so deeply that amazing reactions come forth with expressive emotions. When I add more pressure to 50 regular wood bridge pianos we just get a more annoying hit with less sustain. With granite it starts to bring back some of the percussive hit and takes sustain back down minutely, but the feeling physically felt interacts with our brain/body as "the granite piano now goes into 3d as you will feel the energy also and not just hear it". The Story & Clark shows very little of this feeling because it's only tuned to A=440 presently, and to engage feel stronger it needs to go to A=444 hertz and then all the bells and whistles come alive. I don't dare go farther then that as I don't want to test the harp limits. With the Baldwin I did engage A=448 Hz due to it's stress limits extended and more quality hard wood framework, but without manufacturer specs and approval I don't want to go farther then A=444 hertz on a consistent basis. Many, many more blessings coming up as we look forward to the marketing team that can take this farther someday in the near future. Will this ever get off the ground and fly? The answer is yes it is here to stay because it causes people to play the piano more because of the good feeling. In the past I loved to get on a 9 foot grand as chop stick even sounded good on a piano with better harmonics. Now I can play a baby grand and enjoy it even better with less cost.

As for me I belong in the search and the discover part of this technology and will try to remain there except for an occasional conference or other things demanding my presents to answer questions on the fly, or to bring certain ones up to speed on the newest discovery. Dan

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#1995357 - 12/06/12 08:49 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Thanks for the clarifications Dan. Outside of the problems associated with tuning/servicing a piano with dampers running fully up the treble, the concept of having damper control for these notes in this area would be quite appealing for some pianists. These notes also pick up sympathetic vibration (if left undamped) and do add to normal pianos overall spectrum when played so perhaps a comment on how the piano sounds without this resonance should be made by someone who has heard it.

I think an reasonable thing to pursue would be some sort of material that is sandwiched between the granite and the soundboard in order to moderate the granites ability to convey energy to more reasonable limits....if these limits are desirable, such as in the treble.


Edited by Emmery (12/06/12 08:50 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1995384 - 12/06/12 09:57 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
An old trick is to use thin shims under the damper tray felt to get progressive lift, for example, two thicknesses under the top section, one in the next section down. This would allow the pianist to lift just the new top section of dampers with half-pedaling, to add those sympathetic vibrations when desired.

I applaud everyone who is trying out new ideas. New materials in action parts, soundboard, and bridges seem to have the greatest potential for big changes.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

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#1995390 - 12/06/12 10:10 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Hi Dan,

Thanks for the posting; that one must have taken up considerable time for you to process. As you have mentioned you are more involved in the search and discover side of this equation which is completely understandable.

For these two paragraphs below I have one observation;

Originally Posted By: Daniel Koehler
This is a hard letter to write since I do NOT support the crass treatment you all received and style that has been unjustly delivered. This is why artists need to have someone represent their product that doesn't take offense. My opinion is that they treat this invention like you insulted their child on the play ground and a "defense mechanism" is in place.


Originally Posted By: Daniel Koehler
I personally do welcome comments whether flattering or not, as I really do rely on that feed back because now is the time to change things while we are still in the prototype stage. I want to thank you all for any comment as I would love to change things for the better, and you all are helping me to do that. Thank you!


While I am not trying to direct anyone’s business I believe all involved in this developmental process need to have a meeting with Mr. Di Santo and impress upon him the value of having an impartial third party such as a marketing firm advance the developments of this invention to the public; perhaps a firm that has personnel experienced in the piano business.

That way the personal emotion invested by the inventor is does not hinder further development, acceptance of this invention in the mainstream marketplace, and following sales volumes.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1995636 - 12/06/12 07:57 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1890
Loc: Philadelphia area
Dan, Thanks for posting. I too applaud people who are trying to improve the piano. I believe the piano is still in the process realizing its potential.

I'm confused by the use of the word "Technology" and by the phrase "Mr. Robert DeSanto's invention". I don't understand how the use of a different natural material for piano bridges is an invention or an technological advancement?

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#1995689 - 12/06/12 11:00 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Thanks for posting Dan. I found it to be a very interesting read. I will be traveling to Chicago in January and again in February. It would be most interesting to check out another piano if it were available there.

I wish you the best in your new venture!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1995782 - 12/07/12 06:05 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Dave B]
Daniel Koehler Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Naples, FL
Looking up the terms

Technology is by Wikipedia... "is the making, modification, usage, and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, crafts, systems, methods of organization, in order to solve a problem".

Invention is by Wikipedia... "is a unique or novel device, method, composition or process. It may be an improvement upon a machine or product, or a new process for creating an object or a result"

The technology fits this piano project perfectly as the modification, and usage with techniques, and solving a problem are highest on the list.

The Invention fits also as using stone in the bridge is very unique, and certainly and improvement with auditory sustain and support, plus it most certainly is a new process.

Mr. Robert Di Santo is the one that came up with the idea and sculpted the stone as he is "an artist" in the stone field, and it is only fitting to respect him as the inventor of using stone in musical instruments.

As far as technology advancement... can you imagine a piano sound board that does not loose its crown over time? The stone supports the sound boards curvature to not move or bend out of shape, and the sound board supports the stone from breaking as the two resists movement, therefore it does not go out of tune with climate change as quick but resists sound board movement since rock is not as affected by moisture as much. Actually the rock bridge resists forward pull when the pianos string tension is lifted as the rock bridge doesn't bend much, unlike the wooden one that does bend as I fight that trying to settle the strings while tuning pianos.

The reason for the curvature of the sound board is that the wood under stress transmits sound better exciting the material. Those who have seen Mason & Hamlin's sound board demonstration model can easily see that the bent sound board projects a better sound then the dull sound without a curvature of the sound board (got to love the visuals). Now that granite is holding the sound board to not loose the bend you can see the long term benefit's in that one item alone, as we make a piano sound good for so many years that it's unknown how long. Maybe we shouldn't do this as why would you buy a new piano then? Hm... Better then that though is we found we don't even need the curve to sustain and sound good which blew my mind away as a tuner because I rebuild old pianos frequently, and now they can sound great without a crown since most have long past that point. Every time I turn around it seems I find another blessing to this one material change.

The speed of the transfer of sound through stone is faster with less loss. Not having electronic amplification it's best to eliminate as many drags or resistance to get the most out of the energy that the string produces. Wood is a great substance to transfer energy into the air, but as a point A to point B going through wood I find it has its limits.

If I were to ask which needle in a record player would you use to transfer the energy to the amplifier and gave 4 materials; Wood, Steel, Gem Stone, Diamond... which one would you chose to get the most energy out of the vinyl record? The truth is that we have been using wood in a piano bridge and really diamond would be the best for energy transfer. Granite is going towards diamond although we are far from it in speed of transfer. Granite does go beyond wood in transfer through it, but as far as transmitting like a sound board does into the air like a speaker cone you would see granite would not be heard very many feet away. Bottom line is that we should use the material that is best suited for the usage, and so far I see the best choice now is a wooden sound board with tight grain and granite in the bridge. In the future I look forward to using gemstone and going another level.

Actually there are many advancements coming out in the future because of this material change, because we can control the pianos sound greatly with this one item. The excitement around here is great, and the pianists that I am gifted with that are helping me understand their world is contouring the direction taken, as I want to listen and advance. Dan

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#1995793 - 12/07/12 06:37 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Daniel Koehler Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Naples, FL
Thanks for your comments as you are very right on about the marketing of a product. We need this! I'm looking forward to having a manufacturer take this side of things as they are already set up to build pianos and market them, and life would be easier for all of us at that point.

When the piano patent prints then licensing can start as you need the title to secure your market worldwide and get a return on all the investment made. We are close to the patent printing which I hear is spring 2013. Seven years ago when I got involved with this we were a long way off, and now after years and years of study and much investment it is about to come forth. Until then we all have to pitch in and help where we can even if it's not our cup of tea! Dan

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#1995803 - 12/07/12 07:13 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
Daniel Koehler Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Naples, FL
Thanks for the tip on shims.

I actually have the reverse problem because the audible sustain increased greatly (almost no fall off of tone noticed) so that I have to increase the dampers length to silence the strings energy, as pedaling starts just with a touch of the pedal instead of holding it down because it's too easy to get sustain happening.

I'm currently wanting to install some player systems to see what happens with the playability of them (1 QRS and 1 Pianodisc) because of our extra sustain might change things. I have been certified in both so when I can afford one of each I will install them (one in each granite prototype).

The Story & Clark piano is a QRS product and has a pre-cut hole so that one fits QRS rail perfectly. The Baldwin granite 100+ old action has a 3/4 inch indented or cut key so it fits the Pianodisc rail perfectly.

The questions are...
1. Will the piano sounds run together? (Negative)
2. Will the piano sound less choppy? (positive)
3. Do we even need a pedal or will the QRS keys held be the perfect sustain and fluidity making the solenoid pedal useless addition?

I'm guessing door #3 (ha ha). Anyway... as you see the advancements only go as fast as the money I have to put towards it! Dan

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#1995807 - 12/07/12 07:24 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Daniel Koehler Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Naples, FL
Thanks for the well wishes.

The pianos in Chicago was short lived and the time for the Story & Clark with granite is scheduled to come back as it was on loan for a predetermined time mainly for a preview of what's to come.

So far other prototypes are not produced yet, and I'm looking at putting a player in the ones we have now and will be testing what reaction those have with the pianos because of the granite bridge. Research and Development is fun! Dan

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#1995814 - 12/07/12 07:36 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Emmery]
Daniel Koehler Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Naples, FL
You are right on track Emmery with other materials and their usage.

For years you have seen manufacturers contour the bridge with lamination's and various types of woods used including different shapes. What would happen if we used two or three types of granite? What would happen if we used wood on the pins as a top cap and granite block underneath? What would happen if we used granite on top and wood underneath? What about granite on height, shape, size? As you can see there are so many variables that we need a full team working hard to just get some answers to the "what if" questions. I look forward to exploring all the variations when the opportunity can be taken. Dan

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