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Del #1992693 11/30/12 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Del
I'd start by having the hammers voiced to sound something like a Blüthner should sound.

If it were my piano, I'd check everything else that Del suggests first and see that the plate is properly secured, none of the pressure bar screws are loose, and the action rails are firmly fastened to the brackets. Are the coils round the pins as tight as they should be? All these things should be ok as the piano has just come from the restorer but strange things can happen along the way.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Del #1993786 12/02/12 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Del
I'm not where I can listen to the YouTube audio on either headphones or decent speakers but I think I can hear what is bothering you.

First, I doubt it is bridge pins or bridge related.

The voicing sounds very bright -- almost strident (but this may be exacerbated by my computer speakers) -- for a piano that historically has been noted for having a warm, almost mellow sound. I'd start by having the hammers voiced to sound something like a Blüthner should sound.

Strings should be “level.” This might be part of the problem. And while the technician is in there leveling strings he/she might also check the contour of the V-bar. You’d like it to be smooth and nicely rounded—a radius of about 1.0 to 1.5 mm should be about right.

Have your technician make sure the bearing bar is installed to the correct height.

While this does sound like a string termination problem at the V-bar end it could also be something as simple—and as difficult to track down—as a loose hinge or other piece of hardware. Check for loose things anywhere in, on or around the piano. These things, by the way, are also made worse by the rather hard tone of the piano.

A few other ideas come to mind—not likely but still things to check—loose hammer heads, cracked hammershanks, loose hammer butt action centers, etc.

ddf


Thanks for your input, Del.

Yes, there is always the possibility of some kind of adventitious sympathetic resonance taking place, so I am slowly eliminating possibilities (removing cabinet parts, etc). No joy yet, however, though it may take time (and patience ...).

One quick question regarding the V-bar. On this piano, the V-bar is around 4-5 mm in radius, and has no pressure bar on the tenor section. Yes, there are signs of wear in terms of the gilding (it is 80 years old) but it is hard to find evidence of grooves, though perhaps I need to invest in a magnifying glass (or new spectacles). Either way, is this an unusually large radius for a V-bar, and could that contribute to termination problems?

Finally, I'm on the look out for somebody half-way local who knows their Bluthners. Since I received the piano I have always thought it a bit bright in the tenor and treble, though sweet enough if played softly, and I raised the issue of voicing with my original tech who recommended tuning, tuning and tuning again before doing anything. Four tunings in (and another on the way), it is probably time to get someone willing and able to voice it properly.

Thanks again,

P.

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Originally Posted by Withindale
If it were my piano, I'd check everything else that Del suggests first and see that the plate is properly secured, none of the pressure bar screws are loose, and the action rails are firmly fastened to the brackets. Are the coils round the pins as tight as they should be? All these things should be ok as the piano has just come from the restorer but strange things can happen along the way.


Thanks Ian. I'll work on this in the days ahead.

Best wishes,

P.

PNO40 #1993803 12/02/12 06:56 PM
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Hadn't realised there is no pressure bar (in the tenor) of your piano.

Also it would make sense to voice a note or two to see if that solves, or partially solves, the problem.

Good luck.

Last edited by Withindale; 12/02/12 08:32 PM. Reason: tenor

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
PNO40 #1993806 12/02/12 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by PNO40
One quick question regarding the V-bar. On this piano, the V-bar is around 4-5 mm in radius, and has no pressure bar on the tenor section. Yes, there are signs of wear in terms of the gilding (it is 80 years old) but it is hard to find evidence of grooves, though perhaps I need to invest in a magnifying glass (or new spectacles). Either way, is this an unusually large radius for a V-bar, and could that contribute to termination problems?

It's not really a question of "grooves." Take a look at the contact point of the strings against the V-bar. Look closely. Typically the top surface of the V-bar (a misnomer, by the way) is rounded. It really shouldn't be. From the point of contact that constitutes the termination of the speaking length of the string it should drop away quickly. To relate it to something I'm familiar with...you'd like it to look something like the top surface of an ocean wave that is just about to break.

If the slope of the V-bar on the speaking side is too gradual the vibrating string can buzz against the bar creating just the sound you are hearing. I am currently in China and I cannot view anything on YouTube here so I can't go back and look at the string termination configuration in your piano but...if there is not pressure bar in the tenor section I'd guess (not being able to see or hear your piano) that this is where the trouble probably lies.

If this does prove to be the case the easiest solution is probably going to be to move the strings out of the way and grind the speaking side of the V-bar down a bit. Just enough that there is no possibility of the vibrating string coming into contact with the V-bar.



Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
Del #1993848 12/02/12 09:01 PM
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[Linked Image]

I wonder about the two bottom coils in this image (I suggest you blow them up on screen - Ctrl+). Are the coils as tight as possible with the at right angles into the becket. If not the problem Del mentions could be induced or exacerbated.

Presumably Bluthner made this model with this type of V-bar and it performed satisfactorily so there must be something else as well as the V-bar causing the problem.

There are several posts on the technicians forum about the need to tighten coils even when there is no obvious need to do so.

PS The bottom right coil appears to have its wire bent round in a loop before it goes into the hole in the pin. To my mind this would mean the string is not properly terminated at the pin which, in turn, will mean it will not be properly terminated at a V-bar, or an O-bar, especially in the absence of a pressure bar. Does this make sense, Del?

Last edited by Withindale; 12/03/12 05:43 AM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
PNO40 #1995270 12/06/12 01:33 AM
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On my Hamburg "B" the metallic buzz turned out to be a loose knurled nut on the strip next to the balance rail that holds the keys in place when the action is removed from the piano. Took a long time to find that one!

Del #1995327 12/06/12 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Del
It's not really a question of "grooves." Take a look at the contact point of the strings against the V-bar. Look closely. Typically the top surface of the V-bar (a misnomer, by the way) is rounded. It really shouldn't be. From the point of contact that constitutes the termination of the speaking length of the string it should drop away quickly.


Thanks Del. I'm not sure the V-bar on this piano quite fits that description, but here are some photos to better judge the situation.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Del
If the slope of the V-bar on the speaking side is too gradual the vibrating string can buzz against the bar creating just the sound you are hearing. I am currently in China and I cannot view anything on YouTube here so I can't go back and look at the string termination configuration in your piano but...if there is not pressure bar in the tenor section I'd guess (not being able to see or hear your piano) that this is where the trouble probably lies.


For reference, here are photos of the three sections:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Del
If this does prove to be the case the easiest solution is probably going to be to move the strings out of the way and grind the speaking side of the V-bar down a bit. Just enough that there is no possibility of the vibrating string coming into contact with the V-bar.


To be honest, I am absolutely loathe to allow anybody file the V-bar until absolutely every other possibility is ruled out, but the option will always remain as a (very) last resort.

With thanks again,

P.

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Originally Posted by Withindale
[Linked Image]

I wonder about the two bottom coils in this image (I suggest you blow them up on screen - Ctrl+). Are the coils as tight as possible with the at right angles into the becket. If not the problem Del mentions could be induced or exacerbated.

PS The bottom right coil appears to have its wire bent round in a loop before it goes into the hole in the pin. To my mind this would mean the string is not properly terminated at the pin which, in turn, will mean it will not be properly terminated at a V-bar, or an O-bar, especially in the absence of a pressure bar. Does this make sense, Del?


Thanks Ian. Here are some better photos of the coils, and the post above has a full set of the general layout and V-bar design.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Having looked closely, I'm not sure if I can identify precisely the issue you are referring too, though I will be asking my tech to examine them closely when he comes on Friday. Most of the strings seem to have some curvature entering the pin, but perhaps it is that it is too much and should instead be a clear 90 degree angle? Or is that they should be entirely snug with the body of the pin when entering the hole?

With thanks in advance,

P.


TomazP #1995332 12/06/12 08:22 AM
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Thanks to Del, Withindale, TomazP, Supply, Seeker and all the others who have contributed to this discussion. Based upon all the input I have received, I have decided on the following plan:

1. As the piano is now once more out of tune, and some of the metallic zings now audible are likely coming from out of tune unisons and sympathetic resonance on the undamped treble section, the first thing is to get it back in tune. Once in tune, the hunt for suspect coils, hinges, screws, etc can begin in earnest.

2. I have identified a specialist tech (100 miles away) with experience of voicing Bluthners. He has been booked in to come a month from now to voice the piano (which I always thought needed to be done anyway) and in the course of doing this, he may well identify whatever problems remain after the tuning and hunt for stray 'resonators'.

I'll keep people posted on the progress and outcome in the weeks ahead.

With thanks and best wishes,

P.

PNO40 #1995336 12/06/12 08:40 AM
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I'd suggest you read this thread about coils then ask your tuner to check and, if necessary, rectify the coils on the suspect notes during the tuning.

I discovered a problem with the seating of all my tenor and treble strings on the pressure bar immediately after my last tuning (as a result of the tuning in fact). Putting that right transformed the tone of the piano to what I had always wanted to be but put all the unisons out.

PS Hadn't noticed your new pictures before writing the above.

Underlying what Del says, if I have understood what he has written before, is that proper termination of the string is crucial. There are two elements to this: the shape of the V-bar together with the string's conformity to it, and the stability of the non-speaking length at the pressure bar, if there is one, and the coil.

Bluthner would have gone to great lengths to ensure good terminations before the piano left the factory.

The problem may be somewhere else entirely, as with Tomaz's Steinway, but it's worth looking into Del's hunch.

Last edited by Withindale; 12/06/12 10:45 AM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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