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But they do have to meet up on beat 1 right (on something). Chord tones?

I can understand not being the root of beat 1 on 8 bars of a single chord like So What. But I find my position in the form from the bass player outlining the chord. Or at least that's what I think I hear.

Sometimes. I would guess I play a root note on the first beat maybe 50% on the time. For the first chord of the sequence (or change of section) it is probably more like 80-90%. I think bassists are less concerned with playing chord tones but more interested in getting between the important notes in a smooth way. The line is more important that whether the note conflicts with a chord symbol.



If anyone is struggling with the form then it makes sense for the bass to play more simply and play more root notes. If a soloist is going pretty out and is very confident with the sequence then there is less point in being strict with the root notes. The same idea goes for the drummer - it is a bad idea to be playing interesting cross rhythms if everyone is having a hard job just playing together and holding the form.

This is interesting. In my mind, when I think of what the melody suggests, that neither of these scales could work because of the Bb rather than a B in both scales. I remember having a heated discussion a while ago about melody, scales, chords and why I believed that to abandon the idea of melody while soloing misses the point of actually playing the changes IN that particular tune.

So given that both Dave and David think this is acceptable, what am I missing here? Am I really out to lunch on this? Is the B in the melody really unimportant to you two?

Scep, to me it means is that you have to think of a substitution at the time you're playing (during the solo -- NOT the head). And we did discuss that earlier.

Just because the original chord says C-(maj)7 doesn't mean you have to stick to that. So you think of the sub and then outline the harmony for that. They already mentioned the subs: C-7, C-6, Cdim7, or A-7b5. But you can even go beyond that by doing some quick modulation.

I think it's even possible to change the chord every couple of beats since you have 2 bars. For example, you can start at C#-7 then go back down to C-7 on this. I was just playing around with that. Of course some of it's hard to do at a fast tempo.

I don't think it's even necessary to outline the chord changes with a LH voicing. Depends how much time you have.

I personally don't like to just think of the scale. I'd like to think of the harmony I'm implying so I make clearer choices (if there's time to think). So when Dave started talking about scales, I just translated that to the chords that it's meant to represent. Just my way of thinking.

Now I didn't do this at all in Solar. I'm just realizing this now and freeing my thinking a little bit. This little exercise will change my view of the chord changes everywhere. I was actually applying this thinking to many other tunes tonight, just to see if I can get it. So it's a simplistic and automatic reharm method.

If you think that a jazz improvisation is a theme and variations then I guess you can never get away from development of the melody. However the melody is far from just a bunch of pitches, also there are rhythmic and phrase shape elements, intervals etc, and it is possible to develop these while relaxing the pitch information just as it is also possible to retain the original pitch information and improvise with the rhythmic elements. As a basic example you could transpose the melody down a semitone and then you would be playing Bb's instead of B's, but there are many different ways to develop the melody and plenty of these allow for the changing of the pitches of the original melody notes.

To me, the B is really important timbre wise. That it is a ascending melodic minor. I might however use a Bb as a passing tone, but I can not in my life hear a CmMaj7 as a Cm7, or even play a harmonic/natural minor scale on top. If I however start side-slipping I'll change depending how I hear the situation. But to me, the CmMaj7 going to FMaj7 (how to go to the Fmaj7 is another matter) is a brilliant chord change that really appeals sonically to me.

When I'm playing Footprints and it sits on C-7 for several bars, substitution of the chords creates inner voice movement. For example C-(Maj)7 -> C-7 -> C-6 -> Cdim7. I think that this is a very common approach. Or side-slipping as in C#-7 -> C-7 -> B-7 -> C-7 (this one you actually hear Herbie do).

It's a little more out to do it on Solar, when I tried it. I'm not that good at thinking this out on the fly. Some chord sequences fly too fast sometimes. I'm trying to make this more automatic.

Yes, melody is not just pitched based, but pitch and rhythm together. I also do understand that one may extract one of those elements and work it in extended ways. But sometimes, to me anyway, the uniqueness of a certain melody coupled with the chords needs to be maintained (and somehow referenced) in order for the solo/blowing to indicate an acknowledgement of all necessary elements of the tune.
So, I completely understand what you say below:

But this is different than changing the relationship of the scales/melody notes/chords from having a maj 6, maj 7 in a scale to one that has maj 6 and min 7.

So what defines a particular tune? For me, Solar is defined by the odd juxtaposition of having an opening minor chord with a major melody on top. If I abandoned this definition, why couldn't I play a Cmaj chord for the first two bars? I think most people would suggest this is not an acceptable sub. I guess I feel the same for maj 7 that is clearly outlined in the melody.

For me, it seems a semitone can make all the difference between hip and simply wrong.

I agree for the most part. The only thing that I'm working towards is whether or not the chord change is brilliant or just annoying. I suspect both. Maybe when I can truly play over the progression musically I'll opt for only brilliant

Thanks btw, for the suggestions of triads. I'd forgotten to do that, and it helps me get around some of the awkwardness of the Minor Maj shift.

BeeBoss, just wanteed to add my to your Skylark performance. Just beautiful. I love the way you are able to control the soft sounds of the left hand harmonies. Thanks for sharing.

Jim

Many thanks Jim, I am glad you liked it.
I have been working at bringing the RH lines out above the LH more and more.

When you play the tune and solo you should approach it in the way that you like, but other people like to do different things.
I can see that the min maj 7 sound is fairly integral to the tune but in the solo I think that it is quite reasonable to lose that at some point if it feels right at the time. I like the idea that we can play anything at any time without feeling we have to stick closely to the melody.
For the bass player on the other hand (which is what I was talking about originally) there are no such restrictions, they don't have to worry so much about what notes ion the tune. For example here is a transcription of Larry Grenadiers bass line on Solar - the 2nd bass note in the head is Bb!

http://www.jazzeducationdatabase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68:larry-grenadier-solar&catid=29:bass&Itemid=54

I don't think there is anything too outrageous in making the 1st chord C maj - one thing that I like to do is to make the first 4 bars C7 (usually a diminished or altered sound) and because C7 also contains a C maj chord there is not much difference. But that is just me, a sound that I enjoy. If you don't like doing that then that is cool as well. It is good we all choose differently as our differences of choice are what make us all sound different from each other.

You know, at the end of the day I tend to agree with you, but somehow at this point in my development I still need to define certain boundaries in order for me to believe I actually can play a tune as 'authentically' as possible. After I've defined those boundaries (the note B in this case in a Cm chord) then I may go ahead and reharm till the cows come home.

As for Larry Grenadier, the guy can barely play so he has no real credibility. I doubt he's even played with any decent pianists.

And who was that he plays with (pianist)? Can't seem to recall.

OK I shall leave this file nameless. But I think some guy named Larry is on Bass and the tune is the one we were working on. I will probably delete this after a short while so have at it if you're interested for educational reasons.

EDIT: Link now removed

Said pianist tends to Bebop for a big chunk of it actually.

Perhaps Beeboss, since you're kind of a Jarrett expert, perhaps you can confirm what I hear here. Occasionally, Jarett will play the chord and RH solo a half step up, just for a brief moment like half a bar. I heard it a few times I have his trio recording of Solar and he does it even more on that. Here it's more occasional. I didn't know what that particular effect he does was so I think I now understand. I heard it in the first third of the video.

Probably he does that. He also does all kinds of different alterations.
One thing he does which I really like is to play a scale which is only roughly related to the tonality as a way of introducing a different flavour. For instance I think I hear sometimes that he plays an B major scale over a C7alt tonality. This makes sense because a Csharp m7 - F sharp 7 is a common sub for C7. The usual altered dominant scale (C sharp melodic minor) is a step away from the basic dominant sound whereas a B major scale is 2 steps away. I expect there are other he uses 3 steps away.

Interesting. I hear it as a Abm Dorian over the C7. So if he's playing Gm7 - C7 he plays Gm Dorian then side-slips up to Abm Dorian over the C7, imho it sounds good if one doesn't use the device too much and that it's used at a fast tempo. (he uses this device on ATTYA a -lot). Actually B major does makes more sense, as it tritone leads to the F.

Hello and welcome all. I was reading some previous posts about Keith Jarrett's trio concerts this year.
His playing is like fine wine, better with age.

Here's a few links I found of his recent shows (2011)

http://www.youtube.com/user/IamSylvan#p/a/u/2/WVGLDeoAAKA

Funny how he stops 3 seconds in and says he'll restart. I believe it's Green Dolphin Street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUJ2mTeKJEs&feature=related My Funny Valentine.

Looking to some good jazz discussions and playing.

Hi Redux, and thanks for those links. I am enjoying dolphin st now.
Personally I much prefer Jarretts early stuff, the american and european quartets, but anything he plays is magic.