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Back to the discussion on rushing, I have found that playing with a bass player alone (no drums) works wonders for my rhythm. There is something about the simplicity of it that makes is much easier to really listen. I've noticed this when playing with my regular bass player. But the point was driven home in my Latin Jazz class when we didn't have our drummer this week. I locked into the bass player's tumbao and really felt the groove better than when we have all the percussion instruments. That's particularly interesting in Latin because the bass player doesn't play on beat 1 much of the time, so I normally ignore that, but yesterday I could really lock in. I don't have band in the box or something like that, but those who do might like to experiment with just a bass player.
Some gig recordings from tonight. I was very conscious about keeping my rhythm good and avoiding rushing. I was pretty disgusted with myself last time. These are a little better.
Side story -- a guy walks up and says, "I'm a musician, can I sit in with the bongos? I play with Ramsey Lewis...". Well that was quite intimidating and I made sure to set his expectations but he was a nice guy and you can hear him playing bongos.
I'm mixing in more R&B/Funk rhythms though everything is really the same. But it seems to appeal to a larger population.
My tone is awful in these. My legato disappeared.
Hi JW,
Not usually a good idea to do tunes for the first time on a gig, huh? I'm curious about what you were reading for 'In Walked Bud' because it sounds different from everything I've seen (or heard). Is it the real book? For what it's worth I also have a hard time with this tune, even though it is the same changes (A section) as Blue Skies which I enjoy playing far more.
Care to argue a bit? I think that you might want to consider how to transition from Fm to Abmaj and to clearly delineate between the minor and the major, otherwise it sounds kind of all pentatonicky. That is a real word. Don't bother looking it up. Also, it sounded like none of the soloists really knew how to play around this tune either--at least bass and guitar-- (as mentioned above).
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
So there's the changes. What exactly is your concern? With the couple of dominants leading into AbMaj7, it really sounds to me like a 2-5-1. My issue with the tune is the actual |AbMaj7 F7| bar itself. When faced with it for the first time and considering the uptempo nature, that to me is the most difficult bar. For a first try, it's what stood out to me. I just ignored the F7 mostly since there was no time to think about it. Something to work out in practice.
Yeah -- I think I played the head wrong.
I'll have a chance to play this again later in the week so I'll get a chance to woodshed.
So there's the changes. What exactly is your concern?
The concern remains that it sounds like the solo that everyone takes is all based on playing F pentatonic with no regard for the two tonal centers (Fm and Abmaj). Just because the two tonal centers share the same notes doesn't mean the notes have the same function in each chord. So, to distinguish between Fm and Abmaj, one would need some sort of cadence material to get to Ab (Eb7) outlined in the solo, and then Fm treated the same with some reference to C7 in the solo. The backing chords remain the same, so it is up to the melody to help spell out the differences, otherwise it is just noodling in Fm pentatonic/blues/whatever. Theoretic justification doesn't amount to much if it doesn't sound right, so, for example just because you CAN play an Eb-G-Bb to get to Fm doesn't mean it is going to sound good. I'm still concerned that things sound good, first and foremost, and when they don't it is probably because something is missing--maybe feel, maybe phrase shape/length, maybe note choices, maybe all three. In any case, this is what I'm focusing a lot on these days, so it is evident in others' playing because I'm getting more sensitive to it in my own playing.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
Frankly I don't remember what I played but what just for the sake of being academic, what you describe is vertical playing, which is doing the changes exactly. The nice thing about common tones on chords is that you can ignore that for awhile and in theory at least, if you're listening, you can make a melody that crosses over all the chords.
Doing bebop style vertical playing is one thing but horizontal playing is something else and provides a nice contrast. Many players seek to mix both in. If I can, I would actually prefer to play more horizontally but I really have to know the tune. So sometimes it can only be a limited application like for 2 bars or so.
Now if I actually had the presence of mind to think melodically then, I can't tell you, because in a new tune, you don't have much time to think. You basically have half a bar to be aware of the next chord.
BTW - I found the changes in an older Real Book and it was drastically different than the changes I found in the IRealB App. It's not in 6th Edition.
On another note -- I can't sight read on the spot so I just tried to remember the melody roughly. I was a little off in the hearing since I never actually tried it on the piano. Anyway, tonight I actually read the melody (one of the many versions), so thanks for the heads up.
Well, I believe you posted a recording that you are free to listen to, so let's start there and then we can talk more cogently about the very thing I'm referring to below.
Originally Posted by JW
but what just for the sake of being academic, what you describe is vertical playing, which is doing the changes exactly. The nice thing about common tones on chords is that you can ignore that for awhile and in theory at least, if you're listening, you can make a melody that crosses over all the chords.
Understood. But it didn't sound melodically pleasing. It sounded academic, or theory based. Otherwise I would have said something along the lines of 'Despite ignoring the underlying change from Fm to Abmaj, you've managed to produce a cohesive solo that transcends this and taken it to another melodic level. Congratulations!' But I didn't.
So, theory doesn't trump melodic sense. It's the other way around.
Originally Posted by JW
Now if I actually had the presence of mind to think melodically then, I can't tell you, because in a new tune, you don't have much time to think. You basically have half a bar to be aware of the next chord.
Yes, this is the danger of reading and just processing a tune as potential common tones between chords, and ignoring melodic flow. I'm playing in a trio with the same two guys for the last two years, and I continually talk to the bass player about trying to understand how to move melodically in tunes, but part of the problem is that he doesn't take the time to actually learn how cadences work, so when he sees them, he just processes the stuff vertically, rather than horizontally. I hear you doing the same, despite saying that we are talking about different things. To be clear: melodic playing is not vertical, as you suggested above, but rather, it is horizontal--at least it should be.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
I don't find anything I can disagree with on what you're saying. Although, I'm not sure why you pick a tune to harp on that I clearly only started playing. It's like saying: "You don't know the tune!". Well, it's true.
I gather you're trying to impart a lesson (and not debating) but I've already lost it. If I played the tune again, it would sound completely different.
Anyway, let's find a "real" debate topic.
EDIT -- Now since I asked for Comments, then as a comment, what you said is a perfectly valid observation and I accept it.
EDIT -- Now since I asked for Comments, then as a comment, what you said is a perfectly valid observation and I accept it.
There. So, time to record the tune again, but this time with more melodic flow, right? The good thing is, I'm always willing to put my money where my mouth is, and have also revisited the tune to give it some more work. I always come away surprised about how I can miss something along the way. But it helps when I hear the same things missing in others playing. It needs to be said that no one should become too complacent in their perceived understanding of music theory. I truly think this leads to sloppy and/or academic playing.
So, on another topic, does anyone else see the connection between 'Nefertiti', and the A section of 'There is No Greater Love'. I believe this is where Shorter actually got the ideas from. See if you can find the similarities (Yes, Ab to Db is obvious--but look deeper, especially some of the important points in the melody.) Fun stuff.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
Let's do that -- post versions of In Walked Bud. Maybe that will focus me on learning it and get ideas from each other.
Talking about similarities -- I was playing Four and How High the Moon at that last gig and it occurred to me that the changes were interchangeable. So while playing How High the Moon, I actually thought to play a snippet of Four. Bad choice from a tune selection point of view though, to put two similar tunes on the same set list. Because they were in different keys, I didn't realize how close it was. Four seems like a reharm.
On In Walked Bud, when I put thought into it and not generalizing changes over many bars (like really paying attention to each chord within half a bar), then one realizes how difficult it is to play this.
It's easy enough to just stay within the scale and just stay diatonic. But without lots of practice, I couldn't easily do it at 170bpm which was roughly the tempo we played it. After sitting with it for a bit, I could only hit the proper tones at 100bpm.
I see what you mean here. There's not a lot of time to think about it. It has to be worked out ahead.
Are you going to post yours? I have a gig tonight so I probably can't record today.
Can't say this is a favorite tune for me. The cycle of chord changes is too fast for me to allow a flow of ideas (IMO). Good thing you get a pause in the B section. But an excellent exercise.
Ok I tried it again tonight. Not there yet since I only woodshedded today. But I'm not one to hide my imperfections. Although, you may laugh that I'm doing this practice live. Lots of distractions btw. There's a newbie bongo player playing right next to my ear and she's off beat. So that was affecting me big time. I also couldn't tell because of the monitors but at least from the recording, it sounded like I was banging the piano. Or the recorder was picking up the monitor.
On In Walked Bud, when I put thought into it...then one realizes how difficult it is to play this.
That's the thing. Every tune presents it's own challenges.
Originally Posted by jw
I see what you mean here. There's not a lot of time to think about it. It has to be worked out ahead.
Well, not worked out ahead, but just knowing where you are coming from and where you are going hence the Fm-Ab thing. It's important to know when the tonality shifts, and how to state that shifted tonality in the direction the notes take.
Originally Posted by jw
Are you going to post yours? I have a gig tonight so I probably can't record today.
yes, but not for a few days, I'm doing concerts for a bit.
Originally Posted by jw
Can't say this is a favorite tune for me. The cycle of chord changes is too fast for me to allow a flow of ideas (IMO).
The flow will come, as it will for Very Early and Giant Steps, etc that seems to move too fast. Ironically, you'll need to look at the form in bigger chunks again. It's a great tune that deserves to be learned, especially the syncopation aspects of it.
Last edited by scepticalforumguy; 12/05/1208:42 PM. Reason: computer crash...
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
Just a small comment on In Walked Bud. In all of Monk's versions, in the bridge, he heavily accents the two Bbs and then the Cb. This changes the whole phrasing and brings out the over the bar line feel that, to me, makes the bridge.
I think that you might want to consider how to transition from Fm to Abmaj and to clearly delineate between the minor and the major, otherwise it sounds kind of all pentatonicky. That is a real word. Don't bother looking it up.