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#1992883 - 11/30/12 03:19 PM Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
Supposedly this is the piece that brought Pogo down in 1980. Did Argerich say he was a genius or unique? She said it in French so the translation has been spun through the years.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9a2xbG9igU
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#1992904 - 11/30/12 04:23 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
I don't think Argerich would leave the jury in protest had she thought Pogorelich was just "unique". His performances at the ICC were absolutely extraordinary in my opinion and I presume that Martha felt the same way.

As far as "the piece that brought Pogo down" - I don't think there was one. I think it was collectively how he presented himself. His unorthodox playing, his hair, the chair, his seemingly snobby attitude, the gum chewing, etc.. none of that phases me. In fact, I love it. But for whatever reason the jury just couldn't see past it I guess. A shame if you ask me.

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#1992939 - 11/30/12 05:35 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1758
Loc: Helsinki, finland
I found myself in agreement with my teacher when we discussed Pogorelich's playing some weeks ago - some sort of manual abilities are there for sure, but his artistry is fake and cheap. On top of that I find him more or less an arrogant narcissist. I can't remember last time I heard a record of his without having an urge to turn it off soon, and I can't remember seeing an interview with him where I haven't felt the same. He plays a somewhat central role in a movie I saw on competitions recently, and my god, it's just hilarious to watch this entire movie full of humble musicians and human beings who like everyone else have had more and less successful competitions and one douchebag that totally thinks that it was his right to win the Chopin competition. His narcissism comes out rather well in his playing. Also, I find it really annoying that he started this false tradition of making Scarbo into a Prokofiev Toccata with no respect for dynamics, details and articulations from the composer. And rarely a dynamic below forte, for a piece that's, to a great extent, in the p - ppp area.
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#1992951 - 11/30/12 06:23 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19367
Loc: New York City
How could the performance of one prelude be of any significance in terms of the result for the Chopin competition? I also don't see anything very unusual about that particular performance except for the horrendous sound quality.

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#1992965 - 11/30/12 07:15 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
fledgehog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 273
Loc: West Hartford, CT
Pogo is a hit-and-miss musician for me. Most of his recent stuff is miss, unfortunately. His tempi are horrendously dragged out to the point where the music loses all direction and momentum (and this is coming from someone who likes most of Leonard Bernstein's late recordings). Some of the worse selections available on youtube include the 50-minute reading of the Liszt sonata, the 10 minute recording of Ravel's Ondine, 16-minute performance of Mephisto Waltz no. 1 (and he is reading from the score in this performance).

But before he went completely crazy musically, he recorded a lot of absolutely brilliant stuff. His Beethoven 111 for DG is brilliant, I love his Chopin preludes, his earlier recordings of Gaspard and his Pictures at an Exhibition for DG.

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#1992996 - 11/30/12 09:04 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: fledgehog]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: fledgehog
Pogo is a hit-and-miss musician for me. Most of his recent stuff is miss, unfortunately. His tempi are horrendously dragged out to the point where the music loses all direction and momentum (and this is coming from someone who likes most of Leonard Bernstein's late recordings). Some of the worse selections available on youtube include the 50-minute reading of the Liszt sonata, the 10 minute recording of Ravel's Ondine, 16-minute performance of Mephisto Waltz no. 1 (and he is reading from the score in this performance).

But before he went completely crazy musically, he recorded a lot of absolutely brilliant stuff. His Beethoven 111 for DG is brilliant, I love his Chopin preludes, his earlier recordings of Gaspard and his Pictures at an Exhibition for DG.


I agree with most if not all of this. His playing has gone down hill for me. But I do think he still has a lot of good recordings out there. All of his ICC footage, and a few of his albums from the early 80's are worth buying in my opinion.

His preludes album is.. dare I say.. a perfect album? (for me at least)

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#1993013 - 11/30/12 10:38 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
His Scarlatti are, in my opinion, the gold standard for Scarlatti. His recording of K.87(L33) in B minor is by far the best I've heard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvzK4idIK2U

I think his entire recordered performance of the 1980 competition is just terrible. Listen to some of it.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=pogorelich+1980
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#1993015 - 11/30/12 11:11 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Ralph


I think his entire recordered performance of the 1980 competition is just terrible. Listen to some of it.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=pogorelich+1980


I'm pretty sure anyone participating in this thread has heard the '80 ICC recordings. Why do you think they are terrible?

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#1993021 - 11/30/12 11:30 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I didn't know if there was a "piece" that brought him down, but I think he was truly "unstoppable" and on his way to being one of the legends on par with the legends that came a generation and a couple generations before him. It breaks my heart so much what has happened to him and his playing recently. frown

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#1993024 - 11/30/12 11:41 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
ScriabinAddict Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 335

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#1993066 - 12/01/12 03:01 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
S.A. YES IT IS!!

I love Martha, but I love Pogo even more in Gaspard.

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#1993067 - 12/01/12 03:06 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
jeffreyjones Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2355
Loc: San Jose, CA
Pogo's early Gaspard would be my hands down favorite if Samson Francois had never existed. His Chopin Third Sonata is my absolute favorite. His recent recordings and performances, though, are utter garbage.

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#1993168 - 12/01/12 11:41 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3588
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I don't know what it is about the Japan 1983 recording but there is a certain intensity in him that is hard to describe. The closeups of his face at times show him so immersed in the music it's spellbinding. It's like it's the last time he'll ever play the piano or something. The stage is so bare too - like it's the last concert of the world. The performance has a few slip ups and the audio/video quality is poor, but it's my favourite of his just because of the intensity of his demeanor. Very haunting. Maybe it's only me, but it has a weird effect on me.


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#1993190 - 12/01/12 12:39 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
^ ^ My all time favorite Gaspard!!

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#1993193 - 12/01/12 12:47 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Orange Soda King]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3327
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
I love Ego Pickelrelish' Gaspard, and find it inspiring. At the same time, I don't think he evokes the meaning behind the poetry at all. But, it is still thrilling playing.
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#1993245 - 12/01/12 02:53 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
Ivo hit too many wrong notes for me to overlook during his performances in 1980. It's just that simple. Since then I have admired much of what he has done.
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#1993255 - 12/01/12 03:43 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.

The contrast of his early DG recordings and the latest youtube debacles is certainly the most extreme drop-off in quality from a musician I've ever heard.

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#1993348 - 12/01/12 06:44 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ian_G]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Yes, it is very sad how personal problems compromised his career. frown
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#1993947 - 12/03/12 01:08 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
celegorma Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/08
Posts: 103
You got to show you know the rules of music before you try to break them. A competition is no place for one to display individuality and eccentricity.

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#1994094 - 12/03/12 11:39 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Tim Adrianson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 1060
Having just now listened to the recording, I would say there is simply too much percussive pounding at too many points in the Prelude. Although I'm sure he saw it as giving full vent to the passionate aspect of the piece, for me his approach actually diminshes the full potential of passionate expression. It comes across more like Bartok than Chopin in this performance, and I certainly wouldn't have given a prize based on this.

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#1994174 - 12/03/12 02:22 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
Interestingly, without looking it up, who did win the 1980 Chopin competition?
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#1994199 - 12/03/12 03:40 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3327
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Wasn't it a Viet Namese Pianist? I can't remember his name right now.
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#1994205 - 12/03/12 03:50 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ian_G]
jeffreyjones Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2355
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.

The contrast of his early DG recordings and the latest youtube debacles is certainly the most extreme drop-off in quality from a musician I've ever heard.


Nyiregyhazi.


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#1994209 - 12/03/12 03:55 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: celegorma]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: celegorma
You got to show you know the rules of music before you try to break them. A competition is no place for one to display individuality and eccentricity.


And exactly what "rules" did he break?

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#1994216 - 12/03/12 04:23 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: jeffreyjones]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.

The contrast of his early DG recordings and the latest youtube debacles is certainly the most extreme drop-off in quality from a musician I've ever heard.


Nyiregyhazi.



It should be noted that this is a piano roll.
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#1994217 - 12/03/12 04:24 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Keith D Kerman]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Wasn't it a Viet Namese Pianist? I can't remember his name right now.



Right! Dang Thai Son
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#1994484 - 12/04/12 05:54 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ian_G]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7862
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.



+1

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.

To me, the ones who do that "it's all about the music and not about me" thing are the worst, because it is dishonest. If you step in front of an audience, it's about you, pure and simple. There's just no way around it. Yes, I understand a love of the music, and how people are motivated to share it, etc. etc. etc. But when you get down to the nitty-gritty, it's still the (narcissistic) performer in front of an audience.

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#1994562 - 12/04/12 10:05 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
AldenH Offline
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Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
wr: Thank you for saying that! I've never seen it explicitly stated, but I feel the same way. Except in very unusual cases, the monk-like attitude of subsuming the self into the music seems fake to me - but they've put on a show of it so many times that they begin to believe the noble poppycock they espouse.

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#1994571 - 12/04/12 10:29 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: wr]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19367
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Ian_G
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.



+1

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.

To me, the ones who do that "it's all about the music and not about me" thing are the worst, because it is dishonest. If you step in front of an audience, it's about you, pure and simple. There's just no way around it. Yes, I understand a love of the music, and how people are motivated to share it, etc. etc. etc. But when you get down to the nitty-gritty, it's still the (narcissistic) performer in front of an audience.
I think there's a difference between ego and narcicism. I also think the above is just speculation unless you personally know 100+ world class pianists.

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#1994581 - 12/04/12 10:48 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1299
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
This thread is going a little astray, but I can't help but to think about those great pianists that could not perform in public such as Glenn Gould and even Rachmaninov and wonder if they lacked the narcissistic qualities necessary for a concert career.


Edited by Ralph (12/04/12 10:49 AM)
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