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#1991448 - 11/27/12 11:32 AM New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS
minty_mommy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8
Which one would you choose if they are at the same price (upper 40K)? The Schimmel was 6 years old and is in excellent condition. I love them both and can't choose.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

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#1991460 - 11/27/12 11:57 AM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Robert 45 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1243
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Welcome to the Piano World Forum!
Although I have a bias for Shigeru Kawai pianos, I would say that the Schimmel is the longer of the two pianos and would probably have a fuller and richer bass.
It is not possible to give a definitive answer on this one as we can only speculate about a used Schimmel and even the new Shigeru Kawai SK2. Pianos vary so much. Ultimately, it must be the decision of you, the purchaser, to choose which of the two you like better.
If you love them both, ask for some input from piano playing friends and do some background research on both Shigeru Kawai and Schimmel.

All the best!

Robert.

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#1991491 - 11/27/12 01:08 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
zwang82 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 12
It doesn't take anywhere near upper 40 k for a new sk2. You can get sk5 or maybe sk6 for that.

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#1991493 - 11/27/12 01:11 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: zwang82]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3588
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: zwang82
It doesn't take anywhere near upper 40 k for a new sk2. You can get sk5 or maybe sk6 for that.


Certainly not where I live...

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#1991495 - 11/27/12 01:13 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: ando]
zwang82 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 12
Oh I assumed it was in the US

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#1991497 - 11/27/12 01:20 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: zwang82]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3588
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: zwang82
Oh I assumed it was in the US


Oh yes, it probably is in the US. I just meant that I could only dream of such prices in Australia. I really can't believe an SK5 or SK6 could go for $40k. That seems way too cheap in any country.

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#1991503 - 11/27/12 01:27 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3339
Originally Posted By: minty_mommy
Which one would you choose if they are at the same price (upper 40K)? The Schimmel was 6 years old and is in excellent condition. I love them both and can't choose.

Thanks in advance for your advice.


All things being equal, this isn't even a question... the Schimmel K213 is by far a superior instrument. This being a NWS edition makes it even more aesthetically pleasing than the Kawai.
_________________________
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
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#1991546 - 11/27/12 02:57 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2713
Loc: Atlanta, GA
NWS hands down. It's not even close. I would jump at that.
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#1991552 - 11/27/12 03:08 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
minty_mommy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 8
Thanks everyone for your thought thus far.
I haven't given much thought about the price yet. I wanted to make up my mind about which piano to get before I started the negotiation. It looks like the NWS wins hands down. And yes, this is the price quotes I got from the dealer (same dealer) in the U.S. To tell you the truth, it was a bit of a turn off when they gave me the price quote for the SK-2.

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#1991620 - 11/27/12 05:30 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3469
Loc: US
Another vote for the NWS.

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#1991638 - 11/27/12 06:22 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6354
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: minty_mommy
Thanks everyone for your thought thus far.
I haven't given much thought about the price yet. I wanted to make up my mind about which piano to get before I started the negotiation. It looks like the NWS wins hands down. And yes, this is the price quotes I got from the dealer (same dealer) in the U.S. To tell you the truth, it was a bit of a turn off when they gave me the price quote for the SK-2.

And I certainly wouldn't pay anywhere near the high $40s for the NWS.
_________________________
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#1991673 - 11/27/12 07:44 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19369
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: minty_mommy
Thanks everyone for your thought thus far.
I haven't given much thought about the price yet. I wanted to make up my mind about which piano to get before I started the negotiation. It looks like the NWS wins hands down. And yes, this is the price quotes I got from the dealer (same dealer) in the U.S. To tell you the truth, it was a bit of a turn off when they gave me the price quote for the SK-2.
Ask the dealer why he thinks you should pay full SMP for any piano. Barring some special circumstances that price seems outrageous based on Fine's SMP.

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#1991843 - 11/28/12 07:47 AM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9247
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Another vote for the 213.
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#1991847 - 11/28/12 07:59 AM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: Rich Galassini]
xentis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 16
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Another vote for the 213.

+1

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#1992062 - 11/28/12 05:29 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Konzert Patrick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 791
Loc: The Netherlands
+1
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#1992089 - 11/28/12 06:28 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN

[] Schimmel

[__] Shigeru
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1992153 - 11/28/12 09:11 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Amy B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/12
Posts: 78
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I played both Schimmels and Shigerus (along with many other high end grands). It's such a subjective thing, but I kept coming back to the Shigeru. I ended up with an SK6 and have been VERY happy with it.
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#1992874 - 11/30/12 03:01 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Hi Minty-mom,

It's seems reasonable to think that a decent quality 7'00 piano should be more satisfying than a 5'11"; but actually there are certain factors to put in for consideration.

Shigeru Kawai has developed a very sophisticated piano action which is significantly better than several high-end pianos in the market. Better in regard to performance but also in terms of consistency and stability over the years.

Another clear difference between a Schimmel and a Shigeru, is that Schimmel pianos have a tonal quality that in my opinion is very linear. In other words the tone tends to have the same color across the dynamic range.

Shigeru pianos would not have as much color as a Schimmel when playing "pp or p" the tone will gradually gain color as you work across the dynamic range of the piano. Depending in what kind of music you play and your abilities, one type of tonal quality will work better than the other for you.

Shigeru Kawai offers an in-home service by one of the Japanese MPA. This is of great value for most piano buyers as pianos can sound different from one place to another; but also pianos require a settling period. By having the MPA work on the piano it does truly complete the initial settling process of the instrument.

As a representative of the brand my enthusiasm maybe on the high side; however the response in the market has been very positive and we have seen many skilled potential buyers selected Shigeru Kawai over pianos previously considered superior such as Steinway or Bosendorfer.



Edited by Kurtmen (11/30/12 03:05 PM)
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#1992928 - 11/30/12 05:13 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: Kurtmen]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3339
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen

It's seems reasonable to think that a decent quality 7'00 piano should be more satisfying than a 5'11"....


"Decent quality"? Come, now. That's a bit disingenuous.


Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
Shigeru Kawai has developed a very sophisticated piano action which is significantly better than several high-end pianos in the market.


Kawai is rightly proud of its pioneering of alternative materials. Better? Not necessarily. It all comes down to how it's been set up and regulated. Is one action inherently better than another? No. You can take a Dongbei instrument and make it perform like a Ferrari just as you can take any high end piano and make it perform like a Geo Metro. FWIW, the last two Shigeru grands I played were disappointing in the action dept.




Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
Another clear difference between a Schimmel and a Shigeru, is that Schimmel pianos have a tonal quality that in my opinion is very linear. In other words the tone tends to have the same color across the dynamic range.


What does this even mean? I've never had any problem getting the desired tone out of a properly voiced and regulated piano, regardless of manufacture.


Originally Posted By: Kurtmen
Shigeru Kawai offers an in-home service by one of the Japanese MPA. This is of great value for most piano buyers as pianos can sound different from one place to another; but also pianos require a settling period. By having the MPA work on the piano it does truly complete the initial settling process of the instrument.


This is something that is factored into the cost of the piano, so it's not like the buyer is getting this service for free. While I'm sure the MPAs are highly skilled, there are a lot of great techs already over here. Imagine how many hours of tweaking one could buy with what it costs to fly an MPA here from Japan!

Now, before I get called a hater by the Shigeru aficionados... there are plenty of S. Kawais that I really liked.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1992948 - 11/30/12 06:09 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: beethoven986]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
Now, before I get called a hater by the Shigeru aficionados... there are plenty of S. Kawais that I really liked


No at all. You made some interesting points.
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
Kawai Digital Piano, Pianodisc.
<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#1992976 - 11/30/12 07:51 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: Kurtmen]
Robert 45 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1243
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
With respect to the previous post but one, I would completely agree that there must be some amazingly gifted piano technicians in the USA. I would say, though, that the MPA is a specialist Shigeru Kawai technician who knows intimately how the piano was crafted, its idiosyncrasies, and how to produce both the tactile and tonal effects that the owner is looking for. There is also the inherent Japanese cultural component of the "artisan" striving for perfection almost to the point of obsession.

A number of testimonies from Shigeru Kawai owners about the MPA's visit have appeared on this forum and they extol the technician's remarkable work.

Kind regards,

Robert.

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#1993173 - 12/01/12 12:01 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
With respect to the previous post but one, I would completely agree that there must be some amazingly gifted piano technicians in the USA.


There certainly are.

The idea that only one person by a given company can do the job is based on a misunderstanding of the craft.

Norbert
_________________________
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#1993267 - 12/01/12 04:24 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: Norbert]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
There is a misunderstanding about the MPA visit.
I think most of us are aware of the many highly crafty technicians out there who can work on any piano.
We also can figure out that a service can be factored in the price of a product.

The MPA service is distinctive in the sense that he is a skilled manufacturer’ staff member who is solely dedicated to the brand, this is a very nice treat for the buyer and definitely enhances the buying experience.

Wouldn’t be nice to have a Bosendorfer or Fazioli craftsman come from Austria or Italy and prep your piano? I think is very gratifying for the dealer and the customer.

These companies don't wholesale pianos; IMO they sell pianos for retail to the dealer , I don't see why not to get an extra service from the manufacturer.
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
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<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#1993272 - 12/01/12 04:35 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: minty_mommy]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1530
Loc: Danville, California
Boy, there must be a WHOLE LOT of service built into the price of a Steinway.

Right?

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#1993277 - 12/01/12 04:57 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: Norbert]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19369
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
With respect to the previous post but one, I would completely agree that there must be some amazingly gifted piano technicians in the USA.


There certainly are.

The idea that only one person by a given company can do the job is based on a misunderstanding of the craft.
I don't think anyone said only one person can do the job. But that is not the same as denying that a technician intimately involved with the building of a particular make and who only services a particular make would probably be superior to many/most other techs who did not limit themselves to servicing one particular make.

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#1993284 - 12/01/12 05:15 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: pianoloverus]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3588
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
With respect to the previous post but one, I would completely agree that there must be some amazingly gifted piano technicians in the USA.


There certainly are.

The idea that only one person by a given company can do the job is based on a misunderstanding of the craft.
I don't think anyone said only one person can do the job. But that is not the same as denying that a technician intimately involved with the building of a particular make and who only services a particular make would probably be superior to many/most other techs who did not limit themselves to servicing one particular make.


Not necessarily. Say for example, a customer gets their new Shigeru home and finds it needs some voicing work done. If they said to the MPA, "I was looking for a tone a little more in the direction of a Steinway" or, "Can you make the action feel a bit more like my old Yamaha?". A technician with a familiarity with different brands might communicate better with some customers. I think any highly credentialed tech could work on a Shigeru easily - it's not that they are a mysterious design, it's just that an MPA would probably be more efficient in the process due to his intimate knowledge of the contributing elements.

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#1993332 - 12/01/12 06:23 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: ando]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1622
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
With respect to the previous post but one, I would completely agree that there must be some amazingly gifted piano technicians in the USA.


There certainly are.

The idea that only one person by a given company can do the job is based on a misunderstanding of the craft.
I don't think anyone said only one person can do the job. But that is not the same as denying that a technician intimately involved with the building of a particular make and who only services a particular make would probably be superior to many/most other techs who did not limit themselves to servicing one particular make.


Not necessarily. Say for example, a customer gets their new Shigeru home and finds it needs some voicing work done. If they said to the MPA, "I was looking for a tone a little more in the direction of a Steinway" or, "Can you make the action feel a bit more like my old Yamaha?". A technician with a familiarity with different brands might communicate better with some customers. I think any highly credentialed tech could work on a Shigeru easily - it's not that they are a mysterious design, it's just that an MPA would probably be more efficient in the process due to his intimate knowledge of the contributing elements.



I think this argument is kind of weak.
In the big scheme of things, the customer requests you are citing seem, to me, relatively superficial and probably rudimentary to an advanced tech.
If Kawai is going to make such a hoopla over their MPA's you can bet these guys know how to make the action "a little more like a Yamaha" or "more Steinway sounding"

My MPA visit spanned 6 hours and consisted of him asking me some questions and listening to me play, and then completely transforming the instrument from a caterpillar in to a butterfly.

Any mechanic can do an oil change on a Volvo, but these MPAs know how to re-map the CPU, so to speak.

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#1993363 - 12/01/12 07:10 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: ando]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
With respect to the previous post but one, I would completely agree that there must be some amazingly gifted piano technicians in the USA.


There certainly are.

The idea that only one person by a given company can do the job is based on a misunderstanding of the craft.
I don't think anyone said only one person can do the job. But that is not the same as denying that a technician intimately involved with the building of a particular make and who only services a particular make would probably be superior to many/most other techs who did not limit themselves to servicing one particular make.


Not necessarily. Say for example, a customer gets their new Shigeru home and finds it needs some voicing work done. If they said to the MPA, "I was looking for a tone a little more in the direction of a Steinway" or, "Can you make the action feel a bit more like my old Yamaha?". A technician with a familiarity with different brands might communicate better with some customers. I think any highly credentialed tech could work on a Shigeru easily - it's not that they are a mysterious design, it's just that an MPA would probably be more efficient in the process due to his intimate knowledge of the contributing elements.
Any good tech is going to have a pretty good idea about the Steinway sound because it's so ubiquitous but not every tech is going to have the same amount of knowledge about what can be done with a Shigeru in terms of altering the sound. No one is saying a very good tech couldn't do a very good job on a Shigeru, but I think it's only reasonable that a very good tech with an incredible amount of experience with Shigeru would usually be superior. I think it's analogous to patients seeking out specialists if they have a medical problem.

If someone asked a tech to make a Shigeru sound more like Steinway then I think any good tech would ask some specific questions about what qualities of the Steinway sound the customer is interested in because "make it sound more like Steinway" is far too vague. What one person thinks of as the Steinway sound is not the same as what the next one thinks.


Edited by pianoloverus (12/03/12 04:45 PM)

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#1994220 - 12/03/12 04:35 PM Re: New Shigeru SK-2 vs Used Schimmel K213 NWS [Re: pianoloverus]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
If someone asked a tech to make a Shigeru sound more like Steinway than I think any good tech would ask some specific questions about what qualities of the Steinway sound the customer is interested in because "make it sound more like Steinway" is far too vague. What one person thinks of as the Steinway sound is not the same as what the next one thinks.


This is absolutely right. It is very subjective what one may think of the sound or tone of any brand. In fact Steinway is perhaps one of the less predictable pianos.
Also IMO most Shigeru owners are not concern with Steinway at all. In my experience high percentage of Shigeru buyers tried or considered Steinway prior to spending that much money on a Kawai piano.
_________________________
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