Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
73 registered (ando, anamnesis, barbaram, Al LaPorte, 36251, 24 invisible), 1303 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#1993339 - 12/01/12 06:31 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hello first thing that comes to mind is that moisture thickened the backrail cloth, at the same time key dip lowers and the hammer raise. 4-5 mm seem a lot but who knows. RXD said the most important thing you may verify. Also visually the way the shanks are at rest can be more or less evaluated.

The worst situation would be a warpage or the keybed with moisture. I have seen that and not under terrible conditions and not on a medium priced grand. The quality or the keybed was in cause and itoor courser bcoffet. s very difficult to correct.. (once moisture was back for accepteable conditions with DC and undercover, situation was a little better but the whole keyframe had to be adapted, with scraping the keybed as well then compete keyboard regulation ) that grand is not far from a large river.
Moisture is high all year long in the 55 60% range usually and more in spring and in a good house well isolated.

Best wishes.

Factory data may help of course but there is so much to look at.


Edited by Kamin (12/01/12 06:33 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1994168 - 12/03/12 02:08 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Are you absolutely sure that this isn't a measurement mistake?

One way to roughly double check, is to measure the difference in height between the bass and treble strings, and compare that to the difference in height of the bass hammers and the treble ones. From your description, I would expect the bass hammer line and the treble hammer line to be pretty much the same, is that the case?

There's just a bit of an alarm bell going off here that the picture isn't quite accurate. Describe exactly what you've measured, and where. Which notes, where on the hammers, where on the strings etc. Is the hammer travel distance uniform throughout the bass, and also throughout the treble?
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#1994378 - 12/03/12 11:01 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: Phil D]
electone2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 276
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Are you absolutely sure that this isn't a measurement mistake?

One way to roughly double check, is to measure the difference in height between the bass and treble strings, and compare that to the difference in height of the bass hammers and the treble ones. From your description, I would expect the bass hammer line and the treble hammer line to be pretty much the same, is that the case?

There's just a bit of an alarm bell going off here that the picture isn't quite accurate. Describe exactly what you've measured, and where. Which notes, where on the hammers, where on the strings etc. Is the hammer travel distance uniform throughout the bass, and also throughout the treble?


The bass strings are higher on the horizontal plane compared to the treble strings. But, yes, the bass hammers are more or less in line with the treble strings.

Yes, the travel distance is uniform among the bass strings at 45 mm, and also among the tenor and treble at 40 mm.

I measured the distance from the underside of the string directly above the hammer, to the strike point of the hammer directly below. Is that correct?

Top
#1994385 - 12/03/12 11:20 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: electone2007

I measured the distance from the underside of the string directly above the hammer, to the strike point of the hammer directly below. Is that correct?


Yes. And, if you do all other steps (key height, dip, let-off, drop, etc.), you can adjust after-touch last via the method I described before (using a correctly sized front rail punching, 300g weight, and adjusting the capstans). If everything is done correctly, this will give you proper hammer blow distance.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#1994392 - 12/03/12 11:43 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
electone2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 276
Loc: Philippines
Thanks.

So if my measurements are correct, my question remains to be answered.

Would a pro technician set blow distance differently for the bass compared to the rest, or is this an unacceptable practice for you pros?

Again, may I emphasize that I have no complaints with the piano and it is still blowing me away and I have a difficult time leaving for work. And I have no intention of changing anything again because I so love the way it feels. Especially that the repetition is so improved after the springs were adjusted.

Top
#1994393 - 12/03/12 11:51 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: Supply]
electone2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 276
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Supply
Y I would not expect a Hailun grand piano to be very much out of regulation upon delivery. They have excellent quality control.




I agree and that is exactly why I'm asking this question. smile

Top
#1994394 - 12/03/12 11:54 PM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: Supply]
electone2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 276
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Supply

Now you say everything is messed up and the piano does not play properly.


Again, I didn't say this. What I said was that the action seemed heavier and the *aftertouch* was messed up. smile

Top
#1994399 - 12/04/12 12:16 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: electone2007

Would a pro technician set blow distance differently for the bass compared to the rest, or is this an unacceptable practice for you pros?


At the first shop I worked at, we routinely set preliminary blow to 44mm in the treble and 47mm in the bass, so yes.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#1994401 - 12/04/12 12:19 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: beethoven986]
electone2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 276
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: electone2007

Would a pro technician set blow distance differently for the bass compared to the rest, or is this an unacceptable practice for you pros?


At the first shop I worked at, we routinely set preliminary blow to 44mm in the treble and 47mm in the bass, so yes.


Finally! smile

May I know the reason for this?

Am so interested in the answer but I may not be able to check the forum for a while. I'm on internet access in my office which has electricity but will be driving home shortly where we do not have power due to the typhoon.


Edited by electone2007 (12/04/12 12:24 AM)

Top
#1994404 - 12/04/12 12:43 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2472
Loc: Olympia, WA
I can see no reason or benefit for the bass to have a different blow distance. You will not find this in any specs for any manufacturer - In fact it would go against the specs for every piano in production.

That being said, you will find professional techs who have all sorts of strange ideas about regulating pianos. The PTG makes some effort to promote standards, but there is no real reinforcement of such.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#1994429 - 12/04/12 02:01 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: electone2007
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: electone2007

Would a pro technician set blow distance differently for the bass compared to the rest, or is this an unacceptable practice for you pros?


At the first shop I worked at, we routinely set preliminary blow to 44mm in the treble and 47mm in the bass, so yes.


Finally! smile

May I know the reason for this?

Am so interested in the answer but I may not be able to check the forum for a while. I'm on internet access in my office which has electricity but will be driving home shortly where we do not have power due to the typhoon.


I've never given it much thought, and never bothered to ask, but I suppose the answer is due to the fact that we increased let-off to 3mm for the bass hammers, which is a safety factor for the bass strings. Increasing let-off distance also increases after-touch, which can be compensated for by increasing blow distance, which decreases after-touch.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#1994466 - 12/04/12 05:01 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: beethoven986]
electone2007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 276
Loc: Philippines
Got it! Thanks!

Top
#1994470 - 12/04/12 05:05 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
If they did that it was to have more powerful and heavier basses, so the pianos can be sell easier but the let off difference is not a good justification, to me.

Letoff is measured and regulated without the piano actually playing ; when you play the letoff distance varies. Hammer travel is sometime reduced to help the touch when the tech don't know/cannot regulate properly and the action is heavy, or misconceived..

But if the hammers are intended for that and bored shorter in basses then the travel can be larger in basses.

Some Erard grands of the 1900 era had more hammer travel distance in basses , a large 55 and even 60 mm with the rest 50 mm, to have more power.

Rest position is better similar all along the piano in my opinion indeed after-touch can be larger in the basses somehow. When playing it will be similar to higher due to more shank flex. more often I will have more key dip in the basses than having a longer travel distance there.




Edited by Kamin (12/04/12 06:03 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1994471 - 12/04/12 05:06 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: electone2007]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France


Dble


Edited by Kamin (12/04/12 05:10 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1994475 - 12/04/12 05:23 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: beethoven986]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Not 40 mm travel but if the pianist is happy with the touch why bother.

The problems may arise after having played enough an action out of regulation With jack buried in cushion this happen, but if not the piano is only not ideally regulated ; if the specs are 45 mm for 10 mm dip it turns out to be 40 and 9 mm also (+-)



Edited by Kamin (12/04/12 05:53 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1994476 - 12/04/12 05:24 AM Re: Non uniform hammer travel distance [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Rest position is better similar all along the piano in my opinion indeed aftertouch can be larger in the basses somehow. When playing it will be similar to higher, but due to more shank flex

Question answered before it was asked. Feel beats regulation by numbers!
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bob Marley - Is this love piano cover
by Danijelcro
11/28/14 07:28 AM
android - QWERTY bluetooth keyboard as a midi piano
by mathy10544
11/28/14 06:30 AM
Black Friday is here - Seen any deals?
by MeghanM
11/28/14 01:16 AM
MIDI in on a Kawai VPC-1...
by pocoapoco
11/28/14 12:35 AM
Just joined
by wise_manzard
11/27/14 10:20 PM
Forum Stats
77071 Members
42 Forums
159413 Topics
2341730 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission