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#1994504 - 12/04/12 07:43 AM Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ???
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Hi

I recently purchased the Galaxy II and Vintage D Piano Libraries from Best Service. All is well except when playing the Vintage D in standalone mode there begins to be audio dropouts after only 20-min. I'm having to reload the patch each time using (Restart button) but this is temporary until it returns. The library was installed on an internal 7200-RPM drive using a Macbook. I then dragged the library to an External 7200-RPM drive in the hope of solving this, but even on the external drive running nothing but the library I'm still experiencing audio dropouts.

Not being familiar with this app would i need to go in to Kontakt to modify settings ? such as buffer size or Voice Management ?


Macbook 5.1 OS X Leopard 10.5.
Intel Core 2 Duo. 4 GB RAM.


Edited by musicmad (12/04/12 07:47 AM)
_________________________
Without music life would be a mistake.

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#1994597 - 12/04/12 11:18 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Bane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
Here's a little trick for dropouts:

Run this on your system. http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

It is safe, I have run it on my own computer. This program finds what is taking the processing power that is blocking your audio stream. Simply run the program and follow the instructions on the link.
_________________________
www.soundcloud.com/btrailblazer

Cable-Nelson upright piano, Casio WK-200, Mackie MR5MK2 monitors, Cubase Artist 7, Steinberg's The Grand 3, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 interface, Asus R500a-RS52 Windows 8, i5-3230M 2.6 gHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB HD (5400RPM)

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#1994637 - 12/04/12 01:07 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
mitzysman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 283
have you turn all power saving off on the laptop - I know on my dell I had to set it to high performance or i had clicks etc
_________________________
Yamaha P-250 | Galaxy II Pianos | Galaxy Vintage D | The GIANT

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#1994659 - 12/04/12 01:34 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Keep in mind that the OP has a Mac.

Is latency an issue on the Mac? It's my understanding that it usually is not.

Also, Bane: that latency tool is for Windows, not Mac.

Good call, mitzysman, on the power-saving/performance settings. I don't know whether that applies to the Mac. It's certainly a consideration on PCs.

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#1994663 - 12/04/12 01:43 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Allan W. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
I actually have this exact same problem on Windows 7 64-bit. All my other (bigger) VST plugins are fine, like Ivory II and other Kontakt patches like Imperfect Samples and The Giant. But Vintage D is the only one that starts to give clicking sounds, but this only happens after around 20-30 minutes of the playing. I have to restart my VST host to get rid of the problem. I'm guessing this must be some bug in Vintage D causing this, especially if we're both having these issues across different platforms, and since my other plugins work perfectly fine.

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#1994740 - 12/04/12 07:05 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: musicmad
Hi

I recently purchased the Galaxy II and Vintage D Piano Libraries from Best Service. All is well except when playing the Vintage D in standalone mode there begins to be audio dropouts after only 20-min. I'm having to reload the patch each time using (Restart button) but this is temporary until it returns. The library was installed on an internal 7200-RPM drive using a Macbook. I then dragged the library to an External 7200-RPM drive in the hope of solving this, but even on the external drive running nothing but the library I'm still experiencing audio dropouts.

Not being familiar with this app would i need to go in to Kontakt to modify settings ? such as buffer size or Voice Management ?


Macbook 5.1 OS X Leopard 10.5.
Intel Core 2 Duo. 4 GB RAM.


That is a pretty old Macbook. Is it a 2.0 GHz or 2.4 GHz? You can probably fix the problem by increasing the buffer size, but that will increase the latency. You might also look at the multiprocessor cores setting in the Kontakt menu. It usually works best when set for 2 cores, but with that old of a processor you might also want to try the single core setting. However, the description of the problem (starts after 20 min) sounds like the root of the problem is that your RAM fills up and then is paged out. Look to see if more than one virtual memory swap buffer has been created and if any page-outs have occurred. That might happen if you have other significant programs using RAM at the same time.

Another thought, have you updated to the Kontakt 5 player. That might have improved RAM management. Also upgrading to Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6) from Leopard might improve the RAM management.

More thoughts: I don't think that Macbook has a firewire 800 interface. If not, use the internal 7200 rpm drive while troubleshooting the problem. USB 2.0 is borderline too slow even for the Vintage D (which is easy on disk speed). You could also try increasing the pre-load sample size in Kontakt, but that could help or hurt in your case if as I suspect the root cause is RAM management. The important thing is to see if you are paging out or not.

More info: I see you weren't familiar with the app and wanted to know where to modify stuff. You make the buffer size change, the multiprocessor core changes, and the sample pre-load changes in the Kontakt Options menu. You can check for page-outs using the Mac Activity Monitor, which is a program in the Applications/Utilities folder. You an update the Kontakt Player to version 5 for free from the Kontakt website. If you wanted to update to Snow Leopard OS 10.6 that is available from the Apple Store for $19.99. Again, check for page-outs first to see if that is the problem.




Edited by Macy (12/04/12 09:07 PM)
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1994755 - 12/04/12 07:56 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: MacMacMac]
Bane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 91
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Keep in mind that the OP has a Mac.

Is latency an issue on the Mac? It's my understand that it usually is not.

Also, Bane: that latency tool is for Windows, not Mac.


Oh he's running Mac. That's why he's having dropouts! grin

Try turning your Wi-Fi card off, that is, if Macs have those. I've never owned a Mac.
_________________________
www.soundcloud.com/btrailblazer

Cable-Nelson upright piano, Casio WK-200, Mackie MR5MK2 monitors, Cubase Artist 7, Steinberg's The Grand 3, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 interface, Asus R500a-RS52 Windows 8, i5-3230M 2.6 gHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB HD (5400RPM)

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#1994760 - 12/04/12 08:25 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: MacMacMac]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac


Is latency an issue on the Mac? It's my understand that it usually is not.


If you are referring to key-press to sound latency, then yes, my understanding is that the Mac comes with low latency audio drivers as standard. However, that utility (above) is not measuring that latency - it is measuring the general latency of the system processes, which can in turn then affect the audio streaming. (and yes, ultimately require the audio buffer to be increased to avoid problems, which of course does increase the note-on to audio latency) I just wanted to make it clear that that utility is not directly measuring the note-on to audio latency.

(and yes, it's for Windows anyway)

Greg.

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#1994841 - 12/05/12 02:07 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Acca Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/12
Posts: 67
How much free RAM do you have?
I am running Vintage D with Kontakt 5 on a pretty old dual core laptop with win 7 x64 and only 2 Gb of ram. I found that setting the Instrument Preload buffer size to the max of 240kb (under options->memory) helps a lot. The "memory" section of the Vintage D module should show about 0.81Gb with halfpedal, silentkey and una corda selected.

I sometimes get clicking noises or dropouts after the computer resuming from sleep, but that is solved by reloading the module. Apart from that it is fine even with fast playing lots of notes across the whole keyboard range.

Note that this buffer is for the preloading of samples into memory. It is not the same as the buffer size for the sound driver, which you will want to keep as low as possible because it affects latency. (I use 256 samples which gives < 10 ms latency)

When you get a clicking sound, watch the top right of Kontakt as you play some notes, if the CPU or DISK bars turn fully white at any time then that is your problem. With the preload set at max, you should not have disk load problems if you have enough RAM to hold all the samples in memory.

Hope this helps.

LOVE the Vintage D sound! laugh


Edited by Acca (12/05/12 02:18 AM)

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#1995121 - 12/05/12 04:37 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: Macy]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Quote:
Macy Quoted:
I see you weren't familiar with the app and wanted to know where to modify stuff. You make the buffer size change, the multiprocessor core changes, and the sample pre-load changes in the Kontakt Options menu. You can check for page-outs using the Mac Activity Monitor, which is a program in the Applications/Utilities folder. You an update the Kontakt Player to version 5 for free from the Kontakt website. Again, check for page-outs first.



Thanks for that extensive info Macy, and to everyone else for your support.

Will not be altering the buffer size due to increased latency issues.

Multiprocessor is set at dual core.

Will reset the sample pre-load size and see if that helps ?

Also noticed K4 provides another option for loading samples in to memory using the KMS feature, could this be another option ?

Do i need to be running a library in K4 to confirm page-outs in Activity Monitor ?

Tried upgrading to Kontakt 5 from the NI website
but got confused about the time limited demo mode.
Can i not upgrade from K4 to K5 permanently instead of the demo version ?


Edited by musicmad (12/05/12 04:40 PM)
_________________________
Without music life would be a mistake.

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#1995134 - 12/05/12 04:57 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
As I understand it, that demo mode limitation in Kontakt player does not apply to a valid Vintage D install because Vintage D is affiliated with NI. So the demo version should be all you need.

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#1995140 - 12/05/12 05:14 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: gvfarns]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
As I understand it, that demo mode limitation in Kontakt player does not apply to a valid Vintage D install because Vintage D is affiliated with NI. So the demo version should be all you need.

The way this is worded is confusing (to me at least). If you have a valid registration number for Vintage D it will release Kontakt from demo mode. Without the registration number it would run in demo mode. It doesn't really have anything to do with a special relationship between Galaxy and NI. It would work this way for any vendor with a product that was designed to work in the Kontakt player. The player is free and only works in demo mode when the plug-in is not registered.


Edited by o0Ampy0o (12/05/12 11:26 PM)

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#1995247 - 12/05/12 10:46 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: musicmad
Quote:
Macy Quoted:
I see you weren't familiar with the app and wanted to know where to modify stuff. You make the buffer size change, the multiprocessor core changes, and the sample pre-load changes in the Kontakt Options menu. You can check for page-outs using the Mac Activity Monitor, which is a program in the Applications/Utilities folder. You an update the Kontakt Player to version 5 for free from the Kontakt website. Again, check for page-outs first.



Thanks for that extensive info Macy, and to everyone else for your support.

Will not be altering the buffer size due to increased latency issues.

Multiprocessor is set at dual core.

Will reset the sample pre-load size and see if that helps ?

Also noticed K4 provides another option for loading samples in to memory using the KMS feature, could this be another option ?

Do i need to be running a library in K4 to confirm page-outs in Activity Monitor ?

Tried upgrading to Kontakt 5 from the NI website
but got confused about the time limited demo mode.
Can i not upgrade from K4 to K5 permanently instead of the demo version ?


1. What is the buffer set at? Maybe it's way too small now.
2. Try with and without multi-processor on. It might work better without it on your older Mac.
3. But first Update to K5. The Player mode is NEVER a demo. You only use the Player mode with Vintage D. The same downloaded app file is also a demo of the full-version. That makes no difference to you.
4. Use Vintage D normally and check the page-outs before and after you start getting audio drop outs.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1995249 - 12/05/12 10:50 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: o0Ampy0o]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
As I understand it, that demo mode limitation in Kontakt player does not apply to a valid Vintage D install because Vintage D is affiliated with NI. So the demo version should be all you need.

The way this is worded is confusing (to me at least). If you have a valid registration number for Vintage D it will release Kontakt from demo mode. Without the registration number it would run in demo mode. It doesn't really have anything to do with a special relationship between Galaxy and NI. It would work this way for any vendor with a product that was designed to work in the Kontakt player. The player is free and only works in demo mode when the plug-in is not registered.

No, the Vintage D has nothing to do with releasing Kontakt from a demo mode. The App is a Player (never in a demo mode) AND a demo of the full version. The Player is all you need for the Vintage D. You don't need the full version for the Vintage D and the Vintage D will NOT unlock the full version.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1995253 - 12/05/12 11:32 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: Macy]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: Macy
No, the Vintage D has nothing to do with releasing Kontakt from a demo mode. The App is a Player (never in a demo mode) AND a demo of the full version. The Player is all you need for the Vintage D. You don't need the full version for the Vintage D and the Vintage D will NOT unlock the full version.

I do not have Vintage D but I have other plug-ins, including Galaxy's (NI) The Giant, which behave as I described. The Giant runs in demo mode in Kontakt until it is registered. If Vintage D is any different I stand corrected.

Kontakt player is a player as you said but it is not a true demo of Kontakt full. It does not even matter whether the player is a demo of the full version or not. It has additional purposes and is utilized for more things than merely a demo product. The difference between the two involves the way plug-ins are written to operate with each plug-in's libraries. I am referring to plug-ins and how they work in one or the other.


NOTE: I had reworded the post Macy quoted after returning this evening. Apparently Macy was quoting the original post at the same time. Upon seeing Macy's post I restored my original post which I had written this afternoon. My reasons for rewording the post were to eliminate a direct reference to gvfarns post and to simplify my statement (in case anyone saw it all unfold and wondered).


Edited by o0Ampy0o (12/06/12 12:26 AM)

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#1995268 - 12/06/12 12:32 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Listen to Macy.

In the context of this thread, there is not interest in the full version of Kontakt (which has tons of added functionality like building your own software piano). When we say Kontakt here we almost always mean Kontakt PLAYER, which is free. The interest in this thread is using the player without demo mode restrictions. Kontakt player works without restriction on registered NI affiliated libraries like Vintage D and the Giant. For other libraries it works in demo mode.

The FULL Kontakt will play anything without the demo mode restriction, but almost no one in this forum is referring to that version. It's very expensive and few here use the additional functionality. If you have it for some other reason, it works, but it has not been referred to in this thread except by you, Ampy.


Edited by gvfarns (12/06/12 12:32 AM)

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#1995277 - 12/06/12 12:42 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: gvfarns]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Listen to Macy.

In the context of this thread, there is not interest in the full version of Kontakt (which has tons of added functionality like building your own software piano). When we say Kontakt here we almost always mean Kontakt PLAYER, which is free. The interest in this thread is using the player without demo mode restrictions. Kontakt player works without restriction on registered NI affiliated libraries like Vintage D and the Giant. For other libraries it works in demo mode.

The FULL Kontakt will play anything without the demo mode restriction, but almost no one in this forum is referring to that version. It's very expensive and few here use the additional functionality. If you have it for some other reason, it works, but it has not been referred to in this thread except by you, Ampy.

This is a rather nasty tone of a response.

I was referring to the player until Macy brought up the full version.

I have no way of knowing what most people think of when they say Kontakt on this forum.

Frankly, the point you have made is irrelevant and inaccurate.

Kontakt full does NOT function as you described.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The FULL Kontakt will play anything without the demo mode restriction


Edited by o0Ampy0o (12/06/12 12:47 AM)

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#1995290 - 12/06/12 01:36 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Look, Ampy, you keep being very emphatic about saying wrong things. That will naturally irritate over time, and it's getting worse. Let's go back to what I was referring to before.

Quote:
. It doesn't really have anything to do with a special relationship between Galaxy and NI. It would work this way for any vendor with a product that was designed to work in the Kontakt player.


and also your implication that Kontakt full will not play unlicensed libraries. Refer to the table on this page. It very clearly indicates that the full version will play 3rd party and unlicensed libraries and that the player will not play either (outside of demo mode).

There have been a number of 3rd party VST's designed to work with Kontakt that we have discussed here and we know that they will not work with Kontakt player regardless of their registration status (the first to come to mind is cinesamples Piano in Blue, but there are tons). I also have the personal experience of playing unlicensed and 3rd party libraries in full Kontakt, so I know you are wrong on both points. How you got that incorrect understanding I cannot imagine.

A 3rd party library (in case you remain confused) is one that is not NI affiliated, even if it is designed for Kontakt. It is that affiliation between Galaxy and NI that gives Vintage D (and other libraries that work with the player) the ability to be played outside demo mode

It's ok to feel like people are picking on you and get your feelings hurt, but if they are doing it because you are wrong and keep trying to "correct" people who know what they are talking about, it is very foolish to keep insisting that you are right without researching the matter further. So please don't.


Edited by gvfarns (12/06/12 01:54 AM)

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#1995295 - 12/06/12 02:11 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: gvfarns]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Look, Ampy,....in case you remain confused.....It's ok to feel like people are picking on you and get your feelings hurt...

Very very petty.

You are getting inference and implication confused. I have not suggested most of what you twisted around and what I did say you misunderstood.

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#1995372 - 12/06/12 09:30 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Brain damage. You certainly implied exactly what I said you did. If you had previously inferred it, that's also wrong, but it's your own personal problem. Had you not shared that incorrect inference here, no one else would have been subjected to it and there would be no confusion on the matter.

But anyway, if you did not intend to say what I quoted you as saying, then that's good. It's just a failure to communicate. If anyone wants to know the answer to the question musicmad posed, they can ignore your posts and get the correct info from the other posters in this thread.


Edited by gvfarns (12/06/12 09:35 AM)

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#1995522 - 12/06/12 03:43 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: gvfarns]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Quote:
gvfarns Quoted:

The interest in this thread is using the player without demo mode restrictions. Kontakt player works without restriction on registered NI affiliated libraries like Vintage D and the Giant.


Are you saying because I'm a registered NI user, i can download Kontakt player 5 without the demo restriction, and use it to play the Galaxy 2 and Vintage D libraries indefinitely ?

Tried all possible options in Kontakt to solve the Vintage D audio dropout issue but the problem still exists. I find I'm having to hit the Restart button every 30 min to re-initialize the audio engine to avoid the dropouts.

I'm very soon to be purchasing an iMac, along with this i will get a External Drive with FW ports, make a 2nd install of G2 and Vintage D on the new drive and run the libraries exclusively from there.

Strange because all other pianos in G2 play just fine, no audio issues, it's only the Vintage D that kicks up a fuss, and this is my favorite piano, typical.
_________________________
Without music life would be a mistake.

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#1995533 - 12/06/12 04:08 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: musicmad
Are you saying because I'm a registered NI user, i can download Kontakt player 5 without the demo restriction, and use it to play the Galaxy 2 and Vintage D libraries indefinitely ?


Yes, it should. That's certainly the way it worked when Kontakt 4 was current and I last did this, and it's what the documentation indicates. If it doesn't work, I'd be interested to know why.

You indicated that you have tried it but got confused about the demo mode. Did you authorize your library? Perhaps you should go down that path again and let us know what's going on.

Of course, even if it does work, there's a good chance this will not solve your audio dropout problem (not to be too much of a downer or anything).

By the way, simpler question: have you updated your Vintage D library to the latest version? I think 1.1.1 ships but you can upgrade to 1.2 or something.


Edited by gvfarns (12/06/12 04:29 PM)

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#1995566 - 12/06/12 05:22 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: musicmad
Are you saying because I'm a registered NI user, i can download Kontakt player 5 without the demo restriction, and use it to play the Galaxy 2 and Vintage D libraries indefinitely ?

Tried all possible options in Kontakt to solve the Vintage D audio dropout issue but the problem still exists. I find I'm having to hit the Restart button every 30 min to re-initialize the audio engine to avoid the dropouts.

I'm very soon to be purchasing an iMac, along with this i will get a External Drive with FW ports, make a 2nd install of G2 and Vintage D on the new drive and run the libraries exclusively from there.

Strange because all other pianos in G2 play just fine, no audio issues, it's only the Vintage D that kicks up a fuss, and this is my favorite piano, typical.


As gvfarns already replied - yes, just download Kontakt 5 from their website and use it. All you need is its Player function and that is free.

I don't know the root cause of your problem, but as I said earlier, the fact that it develops after 30 minutes strongly suggests it a RAM management problem. i.e. your RAM is apparently getting used up and is not getting freed/reused as it should. Then eventually the operating system may page-out (write part of the RAM back to a disc drive to free up RAM space for more/new samples to be read from the disc). If the operating system is paging-out while new samples are trying to be read then you may get an audio drop-out if the new samples can not be read into RAM soon enough.

We are trying to help you but you don't supply information that would help us do that.

1) What is the size of your audio buffer (number of samples)? Increasing the size of the buffer provides more time for the samples to be read into RAM and could stop the problem. But if the buffer is set too big you will get noticeable latency so that may or may not be a useable solution.

2) Are you paging-out? Start the Activity Monitor program and look. It will take about 15 seconds of your effort to do that. Check the # of page-outs when you start using the Vintage D (it will probably be 0) and then again after the audio dropouts begin.

If you are having a RAM management problem there are multiple possible causes. You are running Leopard (OS X 10.5) which is 4 generations behind the current Mac OS (Mountain Lion OS X 10.8). It seems unlikely but there could be memory management issues between it and versions of Kontakt (4 or 5) produced long after it debuted. (Memory management tends to get more sophisticated in new OS versions which support mixed 32-bit and 64-bit OS kernels and applications, and new apps don't always fully test compatibility with older OS versions.) There are other possible causes, but it serves no purpose to speculate further.

If you do decide to buy a new iMac and an external drive, consider an SSD with a USB 3 interface. OWC has external 2.5" drive enclosures with USB 3 for $35, or FW800/USB3 for $67.50. A Samsung 840 SSD 256 GB drive is about $180. You don't need something that fast for the Vintage D, but if you ever go to Ivory II it is advantageous.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1996281 - 12/08/12 07:12 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: Macy]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Quote:
Your RAM is apparently getting used up and is not getting freed/reused as it should. New samples can not be read into RAM soon enough.

Why is that when i have 4 GB of memory installed and nothing else running in the background except KP4 and the Vintage D.

Quote:
If you do decide to buy a new iMac and an external drive, consider an SSD with a USB 3 interface.

The external drive i have is USB 3 but unfortunately the Macbook only supports USB 2. Are you saying i could use the same external USB 3 drive on the new iMac without the need for buying a drive with FW ports, would this speed be sufficient for the Vintage D ?

Sorry I'm fairly new to the digital domain.


Edited by musicmad (12/08/12 07:52 AM)
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#1996285 - 12/08/12 07:20 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
Error Post.


Edited by musicmad (12/08/12 07:49 AM)
_________________________
Without music life would be a mistake.

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#1996291 - 12/08/12 07:42 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
musicmad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 151
Loc: London England
quote=gvfarnsquote

Quote:
By the way, simpler question: have you updated your Vintage D library to the latest version? I think 1.1.1 ships but you can upgrade to 1.2 or something.


Good question. I noticed being a registered NI user there is an option in Service Center to upgrade KP to version 4.2.4. There is also an option to upgrade the G2 and Vintage D Libraries by simply hitting the download button. Has anyone here done this ? and what are the benefits and additional features in upgrading both the KP 4, G2 and Vintage D Libraries ?


Edited by musicmad (12/08/12 07:54 AM)
_________________________
Without music life would be a mistake.

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#1996448 - 12/08/12 02:53 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: musicmad
Quote:
Your RAM is apparently getting used up and is not getting freed/reused as it should. New samples can not be read into RAM soon enough.

Why is that when i have 4 GB of memory installed and nothing else running in the background except KP4 and the Vintage D.

You have a lot of stuff running in the background, you just don't realize it. Look in Activity Monitor and you will see. The OS is using a lot of RAM and programs (Kontakt, etc.) aren't designed to simply grab all unused memory and reserve it just for themselves. Memory management in modern operating systems is very complex. The sample set in the Vintage D is about 5 GB, and I believe they are compressed on the disc (although I can't find absolute conformation of that) and so can occupy much more RAM than that.

Is there some reason you haven't used the Activity Monitor and answered the question about paging-out. I've asked multiple times and quite frankly I'm about done trying to help you because you won't answer the simplest question that would shed light on your problem. I don't get it.

Originally Posted By: musicmad
Quote:
If you do decide to buy a new iMac and an external drive, consider an SSD with a USB 3 interface.

The external drive i have is USB 3 but unfortunately the Macbook only supports USB 2. Are you saying i could use the same external USB 3 drive on the new iMac without the need for buying a drive with FW ports, would this speed be sufficient for the Vintage D ?

Sorry I'm fairly new to the digital domain.


Yes. USB 3 is MUCH faster than firewire 800.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1996450 - 12/08/12 02:55 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: musicmad
quote=gvfarnsquote

Quote:
By the way, simpler question: have you updated your Vintage D library to the latest version? I think 1.1.1 ships but you can upgrade to 1.2 or something.


Good question. I noticed being a registered NI user there is an option in Service Center to upgrade KP to version 4.2.4. There is also an option to upgrade the G2 and Vintage D Libraries by simply hitting the download button. Has anyone here done this ? and what are the benefits and additional features in upgrading both the KP 4, G2 and Vintage D Libraries ?


You absolutely need to upgrade Vintage D. There are bugs in the original release. There is no need to upgrade KP 4 (but no harm in doing it) when you can upgrade to KP 5 for free. Why haven't you done that?
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1996477 - 12/08/12 04:10 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: Macy]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Macy
The sample set in the Vintage D is about 5 GB, and I believe they are compressed on the disc (although I can't find absolute conformation of that) and so can occupy much more RAM than that.


Isn't it the case that the amount of RAM used is governed not directly by the size of the library, but instead, by the NUMBER of samples and the Kontakt pre-load size? (and the pre-load size, at least on Windows, appears to be constrained to a maximum of 240kB per channel = 480kB for a stereo sample)

I know that the operating system dynamically caches (using the file system cache, at least on Windows) the after-pre-load portion of the samples as the library is played, but the memory that is used for that caching would be released when required. So, I don't believe that this caching would "take up memory" - it is simply using the available memory at the time.
EDIT: On second thoughts, I suppose that if the file system cache is NOT downsized straight away when required, paging could still occur.

Does this match your understanding?

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/08/12 04:38 PM)

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#1996508 - 12/08/12 05:12 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: sullivang]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Greg:

I don't want to speculate on the specifics of what may or may not be happening with Kontakt and Leopard (a 4-generation old Mac OS the OP is using). You would have to be a member of the Kontakt programming team to know how it is designed. It is enough to know that if it is paging-out to the disc when the drop-outs occur, that is probably causing the drop-outs. I play Kontakt for hours with 8 GB of RAM and it never pages-out and there are no drop-outs.

In general, to try to answer your question generally, on a Mac there is active and inactive RAM. Active RAM is used by the system and apps. When there is data in active RAM that the app is no longer using it becomes classified as Inactive RAM. When more active RAM is needed the inactive RAM is swapped out if the app that was using it is still open.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1996511 - 12/08/12 05:16 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: Macy]
Acca Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/12
Posts: 67
Originally Posted By: Macy
I play Kontakt for hours with 8 GB of RAM and it never pages-out and there are no drop-outs.


I can play Vintage D for hours on a 2Gb Ram, 6 year old laptop with an old dual core processor, and it will not drop out. Granted it's at the limit of RAM space and when resuming from sleep that sometimes screws it up.

If the OP thinks that changing to a firewire/USB 3 drive will help, he will be disappointed.

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#1996517 - 12/08/12 05:33 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Macy:
Ok. I just know that on Windows, it definitely relies on the file system cache for caching that portion of the sample that occurs after the pre-load portion. I know this because when I clear the file system cache, and hold a note for a long time, it re-loads that later portion of the sample from disk. If I don't clear the file system cache, playing the same note twice, and holding it for a long time, does NOT result in any disk activity the second time it is played.

So, given that it is only using the file system cache for the later portion of the samples, it seemed logical to me that this memory would be freed up if an application really did attempt to allocate some memory proper. (but as I later edited, it's still possible that this doesn't happen immediately)

I realise that the Mac design could be totally different, in any case.

Yes, agreed, if there is paging that occurs when the dropouts occur, of course that would be a likely cause.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/08/12 05:47 PM)

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#1996527 - 12/08/12 05:50 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: sullivang]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: sullivang
So, given that it is only using the file system cache for the later portion of the samples, it seemed logical to me that this memory would be freed up if an application really did attempt to allocate some memory proper. (but as I later edited, it's still possible that this doesn't happen immediately)

Yep, that is what I said. The Inactive RAM does not get paged-out until more active RAM is needed. Otherwise the inactive RAM simply remains filled with the previous data. So if the application needs that data again, it will become active RAM again, without reading the disc.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1996538 - 12/08/12 06:22 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I'm confused now. To me, "Inactive RAM" is memory for which the data is no longer required. That memory is now available for anything - the same application, or another application. I thought that "Inactive RAM" would NEVER be paged out, because the data in that memory is not needed any more. I thought only "active" RAM would ever be paged out - paging saves the contents of memory to disk, so that that same block of RAM can be used for something else. When the paged out memory is required again, it is again loaded into RAM somewhere.

If you're saying that there is a distinction between "Inactive RAM" and memory that has been deallocated completely, then that's a subtlety I was not aware occurred.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/08/12 06:32 PM)

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#1996548 - 12/08/12 06:46 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
sulli: You terminology is not quite right (active/inactive), but you have the concept down correctly ... at least for the heap space: Unused memory will not be paged out. What would be the point? After all, heap space is just memory used by a process (or shared by multiple processes). If the process(es) have exited, the content of the memory it/they formerly owned is pure junk which cannot be used for any purpose. So there's no need to page it out. Instead, the memory can be reallocated as needed.

But in the disk buffer cache things are a bit different. Any disk reads or writes coming into the buffer cache will stay there, possibly for a long time. Even if the process(es) that fetched from (or wrote to) a file that is resident in the buffer cache have terminated, the cache content remains valid. So, a new process can open a file whose contents are already resident in the buffer cache ... and the cached content can be used instead of fetching from disk.

I don't think any of the buffer cache ever gets paged out. What would be the point? If space is needed in the buffer cache for new disk reads/write and none is available, some of the existing content can either be (a) discarded if it is not "dirty", or (b) copied to the disk file(s) to which it belongs, if it is "dirty". Either way, this frees up some buffer cache space. No need to swap/page it at all.

This is my understanding of Unix, and so it should apply to the Mac. It might be partly or substantially true for Windows, too ... not sure. But the OP has a Mac, so ...

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#1996558 - 12/08/12 07:13 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: sullivang]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: sullivang
I'm confused now. To me, "Inactive RAM" is memory for which the data is no longer required. That memory is now available for anything - the same application, or another application. I thought that "Inactive RAM" would NEVER be paged out, because the data in that memory is not needed any more. I thought only "active" RAM would ever be paged out - paging saves the contents of memory to disk, so that that same block of RAM can be used for something else. When the paged out memory is required again, it is again loaded into RAM somewhere.

If you're saying that there is a distinction between "Inactive RAM" and memory that has been deallocated completely, then that's a subtlety I was not aware occurred.

Greg.


Like I said I didn't really want to go into this because the terminology is confusing, the Mac is not like a PC, and even though the Mac uses Unix the terminology is a little different between them too.

On a Mac:

Wired RAM - is memory that is used by the OS and never paged-out and never made inactive.

Active RAM - is memory that is currently in use by a currently active application. It is never paged-out, but it can be made inactive RAM.

Free RAM - RAM that has not been used yet.

Inactive RAM - is memory that is NOT currently in use but was in use by a currently active application or the OS. It is data kept in RAM so that if a current application wants the data again it is already in RAM and doesn't need to be read from the disc again. BUT if the current application, or the system, needs more Active RAM that exceeds the available Free RAM (the amount of RAM the OS determines must remain free) then Inactive RAM is paged-out to the disc.

Data is not "deallocated completely" from inactive RAM until its application quits or the RAM was paged-out to make additional active RAM. That way any current app can get the data again that it has previously read as long as it wasn't paged-out.

OK?
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1996561 - 12/08/12 07:17 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: gvfarns]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 473
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Brain damage. You certainly implied exactly what I said you did. If you had previously inferred it, that's also wrong, but it's your own personal problem. Had you not shared that incorrect inference here, no one else would have been subjected to it and there would be no confusion on the matter.

But anyway, if you did not intend to say what I quoted you as saying, then that's good. It's just a failure to communicate. If anyone wants to know the answer to the question musicmad posed, they can ignore your posts and get the correct info from the other posters in this thread.


This is being addressed in a separate thread here.

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#1996687 - 12/09/12 01:10 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Macy: Thankyou! Much much better. I have done a bit of Googling as well, and it is all becoming clear. All those terms are new to me.

I was thinking that the application had taken some action to make Active RAM become Inactive RAM, such as deallocating virtual memory. The only "action" that is taken is INACTION. The OS deems those pages of memory as good candidates for swapping out simply because the application has not used those pages for a while! smile

A couple of points though:
1. I assume Free Memory could also be memory that was in use, but has now become free, due for example to an application explicitly deallocating virtual memory, or to the application closing. (agreed?)

2. This statement of yours does not seem to be quite right:
Originally Posted By: Macy

Originally Posted By: Sullivang
So, given that it is only using the file system cache for the later portion of the samples, it seemed logical to me that this memory would be freed up if an application really did attempt to allocate some memory proper. (but as I later edited, it's still possible that this doesn't happen immediately)


Yep, that is what I said. The Inactive RAM does not get paged-out until more active RAM is needed. Otherwise the inactive RAM simply remains filled with the previous data. So if the application needs that data again, it will become active RAM again, without reading the disc.


IMHO it is invalid to refer to the file system cache as "Inactive RAM", because pages that the OS has used to cache disk reads would NEVER be paged out - they would simply be removed from the cache and allowed to be allocated. (presumably entering the Active state at the outset if they are to be used immediately, or being marked as Free) I.e - it doesn't make sense to write the data out to the page file, because the same data is already in the sample file from which it was read. ;^)

I know we haven't yet determined whether the file system cache is used for Kontakt on a Mac.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/09/12 01:56 AM)

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#1996762 - 12/09/12 06:39 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
In the Unixes, the file system cache is used for all file accesses. (To bypass it would require a system hack.)

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#1996763 - 12/09/12 06:43 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
MacMacMac: I do not think that is correct. It is possible to do direct i/o to files which bypasses the cache. (and I don't mean raw i/o to the disk - it is still file level i/o)

Greg.

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#1996767 - 12/09/12 06:55 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Well, that must be a special case. I only know of raw-disk access. Used it for a while back in the 80s for performance on database servers.

But whether by raw-disk or other means, does this piano software bypass the cache? And if so, why would it? You play the same notes on the piano again and again, so you need the same data repeatedly. The disk cache is a fine way to accomplish that.

If the software bypasses the cache, it would have to implement its own caching. Why invent what's already there?

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#1996771 - 12/09/12 07:01 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
MacMacMac: As I said, on Windows the samples are read through the file system cache - I have proved it IMHO. Chances are it's the same situation on the Mac, but we don't know for sure yet. If it DOES, then to re-iterate my original point: it seems plausible that if Kontakt has caused the file cache to grow appreciably, and then something (another app, or even Kontakt itself) needs to allocate some memory, rather than page out memory that is already in use, it would probably use some memory from the file cache instead, which would cause no disk activity at all. (until of course the sample data that was in those pages of memory is needed again)

I agree that it is more likely than not that the file cache is used for Kontakt on the Mac.

Greg.

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#1996773 - 12/09/12 07:12 AM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2223
Loc: Sydney, Australia
(and to prove that files can be accessed without the cache on Unixes, you could try the fio file system exerciser. See the "direct=[true|false]" flag. I have tried this on Ubuntu. )

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (12/09/12 07:17 AM)

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#2070015 - 04/24/13 02:50 PM Re: Galaxy Vintage D - Audio Dropouts ??? [Re: musicmad]
sorrownightingale Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 6
Loc: Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
Hi,
I am running Vintage D 1.2 on Kontakt 5 full, my system is an Intel Quad Core Q9400 2.66Ghz 8GB ram winx64 with Creative Audigy 4 pro, asio 24/96, latency 7.0 mseg, buffer 672 samples, pre-load 240KB. My keyboard Yamaha S90xs and CME GPP-3 tri pedal.On Kontakt 4 I did not have drop out but, with Kontakt 5 if I enable repedalling on Vintage D, cpu load increases and then drop out, maybe,it is too much information midi of the continuos sustain pedal.I have run latency check and my system is enabled, then, what is the problem?

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