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If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.
The contrast of his early DG recordings and the latest youtube debacles is certainly the most extreme drop-off in quality from a musician I've ever heard.
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.
The contrast of his early DG recordings and the latest youtube debacles is certainly the most extreme drop-off in quality from a musician I've ever heard.
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.
+1
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.
To me, the ones who do that "it's all about the music and not about me" thing are the worst, because it is dishonest. If you step in front of an audience, it's about you, pure and simple. There's just no way around it. Yes, I understand a love of the music, and how people are motivated to share it, etc. etc. etc. But when you get down to the nitty-gritty, it's still the (narcissistic) performer in front of an audience.
wr: Thank you for saying that! I've never seen it explicitly stated, but I feel the same way. Except in very unusual cases, the monk-like attitude of subsuming the self into the music seems fake to me - but they've put on a show of it so many times that they begin to believe the noble poppycock they espouse.
If narcissism were a legitimate criterion in finding for or against a pianist, our ranks would be thin, indeed.
+1
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.
To me, the ones who do that "it's all about the music and not about me" thing are the worst, because it is dishonest. If you step in front of an audience, it's about you, pure and simple. There's just no way around it. Yes, I understand a love of the music, and how people are motivated to share it, etc. etc. etc. But when you get down to the nitty-gritty, it's still the (narcissistic) performer in front of an audience.
I think there's a difference between ego and narcicism. I also think the above is just speculation unless you personally know 100+ world class pianists.
This thread is going a little astray, but I can't help but to think about those great pianists that could not perform in public such as Glenn Gould and even Rachmaninov and wonder if they lacked the narcissistic qualities necessary for a concert career.
This thread is going a little astray, but I can't help but to think about those great pianists that could not perform in public such as Glenn Gould and even Rachmaninov and wonder if they lacked the narcissistic qualities necessary for a concert career.
Sometimes one wonders how (and why) pianists who suffer terribly from nerves keep giving concerts, e.g. Clifford Curzon. You only have to listen to his two live recordings of the Liszt Sonata (compare them to his studio recording made at the same time) to hear what happens. But as to whether he was narcissistic or egoistic.....
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.
That's silly. Pogorelich himself doesn't strike me as narcissistic, from what I know of him he seems like a quite nice and interesting chap.
Sometimes one wonders how (and why) pianists who suffer terribly from nerves keep giving concerts, e.g. Clifford Curzon. You only have to listen to his two live recordings of the Liszt Sonata (compare them to his studio recording made at the same time) to hear what happens. But as to whether he was narcissistic or egoistic.....
From what I have read about Curzon, neither word would seem applicable.
Curzon evidently had problems with nerves in the studio as well. Reportedly, the opening of the 3rd movement of the Decca Brahms D minor required many, many takes before he could get it down accurately. Otherwise, the recording is something of a classic. And we certainly know what a fine chamber musician Curzon was.
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.
The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:
-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation -Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals -Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents -Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance -Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others -Becoming jealous easily -Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others -Being obsessed with oneself -Pursuing mainly selfish goals -Trouble keeping healthy relationships -Becoming easily hurt and rejected -Setting goals that are unrealistic -Wanting "the best" of everything -Appearing unemotional
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.
The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:
-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation -Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals -Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents -Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance -Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others -Becoming jealous easily -Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others -Being obsessed with oneself -Pursuing mainly selfish goals -Trouble keeping healthy relationships -Becoming easily hurt and rejected -Setting goals that are unrealistic -Wanting "the best" of everything -Appearing unemotional
Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.
Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.
The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:
-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation -Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals -Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents -Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance -Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others -Becoming jealous easily -Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others -Being obsessed with oneself -Pursuing mainly selfish goals -Trouble keeping healthy relationships -Becoming easily hurt and rejected -Setting goals that are unrealistic -Wanting "the best" of everything -Appearing unemotional
Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.
Yikes, sounds like you went through some tough times!
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.
The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:
-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation -Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals -Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents -Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance -Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others -Becoming jealous easily -Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others -Being obsessed with oneself -Pursuing mainly selfish goals -Trouble keeping healthy relationships -Becoming easily hurt and rejected -Setting goals that are unrealistic -Wanting "the best" of everything -Appearing unemotional
Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.
Yikes, sounds like you went through some tough times!
What would the "ex-es" say? Maybe it's they who went through some hard times!
As for "Gaspard dans la nuit", it must be heard live in a hall. It is physical, three-dimensional, no recording can bring this out no matter the player and I am indifferent to all that I have heard. I have been absolutely spellbound by it in concert on several occasions.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.
That's silly. Pogorelich himself doesn't strike me as narcissistic, from what I know of him he seems like a quite nice and interesting chap.
There's no rule that says that narcissists can't be nice, nor interesting. In fact, the best narcissists probably flatter themselves over having those very qualities.
But to qualify just a little - when I wrote that, I was thinking of performers specifically in their role as performers, rather than about their entire 24/7 persona.
