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#1955422 - 09/07/12 12:55 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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M24 = M1.
M24-M38 = M1-M15

Can you see another four note descending sequence now?
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Richard

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#1955424 - 09/07/12 01:01 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: HeirborneGroupie]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: HeirborneGroupie
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I would call mm.1-4 the first theme, in C major. Mm.5-8 are a transition, starting in C major and ending in G major. The transition is to the second theme in mm.9-15, which is in G major.

Part of my choice to identify mm.5-8 as a transition is based on looking at how this material reappears at the end of the movement.


I'm looking for where measures 5-8 reappear at the end but I'm not seeing it. Could you point out where exactly this happens?

They don't reappear, that's my point. Mm.16-23 could be called Development. Mm.1-4 reappear, an octave lower, in mm.24-27, both in C major. Mm.9-15 reappear (with the different notes, but the same harmonies relative to the key) of the last 3 measures altered, but now in C major instead of G major, at mm.32-38. The four measures mm.5-8 had to bridge from C to G; the four mm. 28-31 are altered in order to bridge from C to C.

I'm probably throwing out a lot of ideas which haven't been developed step-by-step yet. And I'm not sure that mine is a particularly good way of thinking about this; I just have "altered transitions" on my mind from a tangent that came up on a previous thread.
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#1955428 - 09/07/12 01:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 223
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
M24 = M1.
M24-M38 = M1-M15

Can you see another four note descending sequence now?



Measure 26.
_________________________
Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1955429 - 09/07/12 01:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: HeirborneGroupie
I'm looking for where measures 5-8 reappear at the end but I'm not seeing it. Could you point out where exactly this happens?


M5 reappears inverted at M28

M6 reappears inverted at M29

M7, the four-note descending sequence in broken thirds that starts the bridge passage to G major, reappears in M30 as unbroken thirds

M8, the end of the bridge passage, reappears in M30
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#1955430 - 09/07/12 01:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: HeirborneGroupie]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: HeirborneGroupie
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
M24 = M1.
M24-M38 = M1-M15

Can you see another four note descending sequence now?



Measure 26.

Try measure 7 (yes), 12, 13, 14 (twice), 22, 23, 26, 27, 30 (yes), 35, 36 (twice), 37 (look carefully).
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Richard

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#1955431 - 09/07/12 01:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If you take those figures out of the score what are left with? Are there any more patterns up to the repeat bars?


That just about accounts for everything, m7 and first half of m13 though are a little different from the descending eight notes in 3,4,12,13,14, in that there is a more gentle stepping down. Then, the only one left is m15 where we have 4 note ascend.

I would call m7 as another pattern. Not sure about m15 just yet.
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#1955434 - 09/07/12 01:24 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: HeirborneGroupie
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
M24 = M1.
M24-M38 = M1-M15

Can you see another four note descending sequence now?



Measure 26.

Try measure 7 (yes), 12, 13, 14 (twice), 22, 23, 26, 27, 30 (yes), 35, 36 (twice), 37 (look carefully).



In measure 37 if you take every other note, there are two four note descending sequences.
_________________________
Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1955436 - 09/07/12 01:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: HeirborneGroupie]
Greener Online   content

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m7 = m37
m15 = m38

Is this enough to confirm these patterns as distinct patterns?
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#1955443 - 09/07/12 01:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M8, the end of the bridge passage, reappears in M30


Isn't the reappear in M31 rather, and also M33?
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#1955446 - 09/07/12 01:53 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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M7 = M30
M14 = M37
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#1955447 - 09/07/12 01:56 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
The difference between M7 and M30 is that the four note descending sequence is qiven in broken and unbroken thirds.

The difference between M14 and M37 is that M14 has two descending sequences and M37 has one, but it's in broken seconds.
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#1955449 - 09/07/12 02:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
When a figure such as the four note descending sequence is changed from small note values to larger the variation is known as augmentation (opp. = diminution).

Can you see where the figures in the development come from?
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Richard

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#1955451 - 09/07/12 02:08 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M7 = M30
M14 = M37


Never would have seen this. But hear it, now.
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#1955462 - 09/07/12 03:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I would call mm.1-4 the first theme, in C major. Mm.5-8 are a transition, starting in C major and ending in G major. The transition is to the second theme in mm.9-15, which is in G major.

Part of my choice to identify mm.5-8 as a transition is based on looking at how this material reappears at the end of the movement.

I agree with M1-4 being the first theme. I think M5-6 are beginning to repeat it and M7 is a surprise, the bridge passage to G major. Jeff heard M9 as established in G major and I still do but M8 is actually a G major scale with G in the bass! Cold logic says it can't be anything other than G. So now I think M8-11 are the second subject and M12-M15 are a codetta. Those last four measures have a codetta feel about them.

Some terminology. When a figure or theme is spread vertically over a larger compass it is said to be an expansion. I suppose M16 is a slight compression of the first figure. M19 is a decoration of it (the addition of subsidiary notes).

M18 seems to be a new idea and has spawned the bass in M20-21. I can't see where else it might have come from. I thought it might be from the quaver pairs from M16 & M17. Any ideas?

M22 is the decorated pattern from M19 with our four note decending sequence.

ETA: The arpeggios in M15, M35 & M38 all come from M12.

Does that leave any measures unaccounted for?



Edited by zrtf90 (09/07/12 03:08 PM)
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#1955473 - 09/07/12 03:27 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Greener


Never would have seen this. But hear it, now.


After reading several pages of what people see, it is good to finally see the word "hear". smile

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#1955520 - 09/07/12 04:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M18 seems to be a new idea and has spawned the bass in M20-21. I can't see where else it might have come from. I thought it might be from the quaver pairs from M16 & M17. Any ideas?

Does that leave any measures unaccounted for?


Could it be coming from 7 start of 8? Otherwise, M20-21 seem to be the only standalone ones?
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#1955537 - 09/07/12 05:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M18 seems to be a new idea and has spawned the bass in M20-21. I can't see where else it might have come from. I thought it might be from the quaver pairs from M16 & M17. Any ideas?

Does that leave any measures unaccounted for?


Could it be coming from 7 start of 8? Otherwise, M20-21 seem to be the only standalone ones?

Yes, it could indeed.
_______________________

So we've had a look at this little work and see that it has contrast in key and subject matter yet it is all developed from a handful of germs.

Listen again to the recurrence of these little seeds that give this piece its unity, its sameness, as you play it or listen to it. They will register more clearly and sound will start to become or a more useful tool in your later analyses. It's easier to recognise a motif or theme slowed down than it is to see a group of quavers changed into crotchets. You might even recognise some of them in the next two movements.

The key scheme, since no-one has published it, is:
||: C major : G major : |||: C minor : C major :||

Anything else?
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Richard

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#1955543 - 09/07/12 05:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Sweet. Having fun with the Sonatine, so far.

Unfortunately, need to run soon and off to the fair with some little ones tomorrow (offline.)

See you all again, Sunday.

Have a nice weekend.
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#1955555 - 09/07/12 05:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90


The other movements in this sonatina are not themselves in sonata form, just in a sonata.


My book explaining sonatas and sonatinas says that the movements are either in sonata-allegro form, or rondo form. I have found this book to be incomplete in other areas so I don't trust this information. Is it trustworthy?


KS

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#1955564 - 09/07/12 06:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I would call mm.1-4 the first theme, in C major. Mm.5-8 are a transition, starting in C major and ending in G major. The transition is to the second theme in mm.9-15, which is in G major.

Part of my choice to identify mm.5-8 as a transition is based on looking at how this material reappears at the end of the movement.

I was of two minds about this before reading this, and I think it can be seen in more than one way. When I play it I'm more tuned to the melody because I learned the piece a long time ago when I thought like a singer. Mm. 1-4 sets up a phrase, and then m. 5 sounds like it's going to answer that phrase, and starts off the same way but the slips into the D chord at the end of m. 6 and by 7 & 8 it sidesteps completing the phrase, and instead moves the music into G major. Suddenly m. 8, instead of concluding the 2nd phrase, launches a new theme in G major with the ascending scale in both m. 8 and 10. It's like a sleight of hand. mm. 6 & 7 also have this transition that you mention.

This first theme is taken up in m. 24 (everyone's in agreement with that). Mm. 24 - 28 are exactly the same as 1 - 4. The next four measures can't modulate to G again since in sonata-allegro form the second theme has to stay in the tonic. So the next four measures are different. Again I'm in a quandary whether to see the four measures as one unit, or whether to see a transition (or in this case - non-transition, since it stays in the same key). Again, I see both.

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#1955583 - 09/07/12 07:18 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: zrtf90


The other movements in this sonatina are not themselves in sonata form, just in a sonata.


My book explaining sonatas and sonatinas says that the movements are either in sonata-allegro form, or rondo form. I have found this book to be incomplete in other areas so I don't trust this information. Is it trustworthy?

It would be typical that the second movement in a Haydn sonata is a Minuet (or an Adagio followed by a Minuet) and a brisk Allegro to finish. Beethoven changed all that, of course, by bringing in the Scherzo.

Mozart would prefer a slow movement to a minuet follwed by a Rondo - note that the Rondo Alla Turca is not a rondo - or an Allegro/Presto.

In their symphonies they both settled often on sonata form for the first movement, a slow movement, a minuet, and a fast movement.

Originally Posted By: keystring
Again I'm in a quandary whether to see the four measures as one unit, or whether to see a transition (or in this case - non-transition, since it stays in the same key). Again, I see both.

What you see is what is there.

Jackson Pollock didn't paint anything specific, just a balance of colour, tone and texture however much of the picture you saw or extracted. If you can see the face of the Messiah in it, then it's there.

The composer's work is finished when the publisher releases it. If critics put names on Chopin's Preludes or Beethoven's "Moonlight" then that is what they are. It's in the eye of the beholder, the beauty, the pattern and the structure.

I frequently change how I see it even in mid-performance.
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#1955588 - 09/07/12 07:25 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I know we cut short our look at binary form but I'd like to point out the difference between the classical sonata and the baroque binary.

In the Baroque scheme only the cadences matched at the end in most of the works. The 'rhyming' feature we saw in the Bach Prelude No. 4 was a precursor of the classical form. In the classical sonata all the material heard in the first half in the dominant key is repeated in the second half in tonic. The first 'subject' in tonic was occasionally omitted or altered in the recapitulation.

The two reasons for the change are that as the development section got longer and travelled to more distant keys more of the first half had to be repeated to remind the listener of the material and secondly in the first half the conflict of the keys was set up and in the recapitulation it is resolved. The story comes to a satisfactory conclusion.

We have seen how important it is to recognise the little fragments and figures that occupy the exposition and why it is important to observe the repeat. If the material is only heard once, the fragments may not be recognised in the development section and much of the story will be lost.
______________________________

We are looking at classical sonata form and the next two movement are not in sonata form. I don't know how interested you'll be in looking at these. It might make a nice personal project but I'll start you off.

Look again at the octave figure in M9 and the three upper notes.

Recall again how in the Chopin Prelude the melody notes descended from B to F# but skirted the G.

Now look at the first note in each of the first four bars of the Andante. C-A-F-A and imagine that they're trying to be C-A-A-A. See how three notes figure at the end of M4 and M5, the first notes of M5-8 = D-C-C-C.
The pedal notes in M7 are C-C-C. Look at M9 and M11, M13, the pedal D in M14 etc. These things may not be there by design but it gives unity to the work and noticing makes it easier to enjoy listening and to memorise the piece.

As far as form goes, this is a loose ternary form. M1-12 being A, M13-18 being B and M19 -26 being an abbreviated A.

Turning to the Vivace, recall again the first figure in the Allegro and drop the first note. You're left with the falling quavers and two knocks. Now look at the opening figure in the Vivace and its abbreviated form in M4.
See how much use is made of that throughout the piece. I particularly enjoy the falling knock spread over M31-33.
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Richard

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#1955657 - 09/07/12 10:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Tbh, when I look at binary form, I do not think primarily in terms of cadences, though they play a role. What I see in "baroque binary" are for example (rounded binary):

A A // B A' B A' //

ternary

A / B / A

etc.

What I see in this sonatina is

A B // [development] A' B' ]

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#1955773 - 09/08/12 07:15 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: keystring
Tbh, when I look at binary form, I do not think primarily in terms of cadences, though they play a role. What I see in "baroque binary" are for example (rounded binary):

A A // B A' B A' //

ternary

A / B / A

etc.

What I see in this sonatina is

A B // [development] A' B' ]

I can't disagree with your interpretation of A and B. They're not fixed things. Music is such a temporal abstract thing. There's no dictionary definition of what A is and what B is. Let me try and define my terms.

(I hope I didn't overrate the cadence in binary; all I meant was that each half finished on V-I. )

What I see in binary is double repeat bars in the middle of the piece.

Part A is up to the double repeat bars and Part B is from there to the end so, for me, Binary is:

||: A :|||: B :|| (two parts each repeated)

or, as heard

A A | B B

'A' consists of material in tonic, a, and material in dominant, b. The second half is material in varying keys ending in tonic. Since baroque binary form was not about drama and conflict but each piece having a single 'affekt', mood, emotion, etc. none of the material making up a or b needed to be repeated at the end. So the development section is c and the final tonic section is d. So now I hear a baroque binary piece as:

a b a b | c d c d

It was Bach and Scarlatti making 'rhymes', where the material in dominant at the end of the first half appeared in tonic at the end of the second half, that I believe led the way to the classical sonata. So now I see the classical sonata as:

||: A :|||: B :|| (just like binary)

or as heard

A A B B (just like binary)

but inside I now hear second subject material(*) so I get

a b a b | c a' b' c a' b' (different from binary)

(*) Haydn predominantly used a continuation of the first subject material rather than a contrasting subject as Mozart and Beethoven did. For Haydn, and Clementi in this little piece, the first and and second subjects are not really in contrast; the latter is more a continuation of the former and is not really a true 'second subject'.

How we hear the works is personal, the aural equivalent of cloud watching. This is why I keep harping on about the importance of key. It's tonal music. The structure comes from the key, not from the layout of the score.

And that, as they say, is my two penn'orth. smile
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Richard

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#1955777 - 09/08/12 08:17 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Good Morning / Afternoon,

As it turns out, I will be able to work straight through today as well. Aren't you all lucky.

It is pouring buckets here in Toronto today and the wiffy is sick, which makes it a perfect day to study Clementi Sonatinas smile. Plus, I'm up early.

Just getting caught up from yesterday now and prepping for today's exercises.
_________________________

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#1955780 - 09/08/12 08:41 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Just back to Allegro, momentarily;

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

The key scheme, since no-one has published it, is:
||: C major : G major : |||: C minor : C major :||


Not sure how important, but just for my records. Are we indicating a switch to C major at m24? This is where I notice/hear the section split, but see naturals in previous measure (similar to how we changed preference to earlier measure in first half.)

If I were writing in all the sections for the second half "a b a b | c a' b' c a' b' (different from binary)."

c m16
a m24
b m32
repeat

is this correct ?


Edited by Greener (09/08/12 08:42 AM)
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#1955819 - 09/08/12 09:59 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Greener
Just back to Allegro, momentarily;
...
c m16
a m24
b m32
repeat

is this correct ?

M16-23 is definitely the development section. I think we're all agreed on that.

I'm confident that M1-4 is the first theme and M5-6 are more than a suggestion of repeating it. Whether M5 or M7 starts the bridge passage is up to your own feeling on the matter. Either case could be argued.

Whether M8 is the end of the bridge passage or, as it is like M10, is part of it, is dependent on what YOU hear. When I look at the score M8 is part of the second subject, when I play it and hear it, it only LEADS to the second subject. I'm indifferent about it and changeable.

I'm confident we've established G major by M9.

Classicism is about proportion. Do you know of the Golden Section? The ratio of a+b to a = the ratio of a to b? The ratio of the first subject to second is the same as the ratio of the recap'n to the whole movement etc.

Music is heard but the score is a physical thing. Going by the score alone:-

IF a = M1-6.75 and b = M6.75-M11 and M12-M15 = closing theme

THEN a:b = 6.75:4.25 = 0.614 (GS = 0.618) and B:A = 23:15 = 0.605

Given the length of the piece those numbers very proportional.
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Richard

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#1955841 - 09/08/12 10:58 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Music is heard but the score is a physical thing. Going by the score alone:-

IF a = M1-6.75 and b = M6.75-M11 and M12-M15 = closing theme

THEN a:b = 6.75:4.25 = 0.614 (GS = 0.618) and B:A = 23:15 = 0.605

Given the length of the piece those numbers very proportional.


Thanks. That's pretty much what I was thinking too, so just verifies everything for me crazy

Although may need to come back and think on it a little more.

Moving right along ... I see we are in 3/4 time in 2nd movement. I take it this is a Waltz? ... teasing. I had a listen and there is no way I am dancing to this.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

We are looking at classical sonata form and the next two movement are not in sonata form. I don't know how interested you'll be in looking at these. It might make a nice personal project but I'll start you off.

Look again at the octave figure in M9 and the three upper notes.

Recall again how in the Chopin Prelude the melody notes descended from B to F# but skirted the G.

Now look at the first note in each of the first four bars of the Andante. C-A-F-A and imagine that they're trying to be C-A-A-A. See how three notes figure at the end of M4 and M5, the first notes of M5-8 = D-C-C-C.
The pedal notes in M7 are C-C-C. Look at M9 and M11, M13, the pedal D in M14 etc. These things may not be there by design but it gives unity to the work and noticing makes it easier to enjoy listening and to memorise the piece.

As far as form goes, this is a loose ternary form. M1-12 being A, M13-18 being B and M19 -26 being an abbreviated A.


For further analysis, should I still be looking for and identifying various ideas within the sections and see how identified themes are propagated throughout?
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#1955860 - 09/08/12 11:39 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Whenever I analyse a piece of music I go through a sort of checklist. Sometimes something jumps out at me and I just go with it.

I look at:
The composer, the title, key sig., no. of pages, no. of movements, metre, tempo, dynamic indications, texture, etc.

I try to date it within about a decade.

I look for major landmarks and make quick key scheme diagram.

In some sections it might be worth looking at a harmonic analysis but in tonal music that's not as important as key. It's more useful for The Beatles. I only usually look at the harmony in cadences or 'interesting spots'. Of course, I do a lot by ear and sight singing; even when reading Symphonies in the miniature score series I can imagine the whole orchestra.

I look for devices; figures, themes, and motifs that recur in various guises, speeded up, slowed down, inverted, backwards, etc.

I try to break it into sections, look at the proportions of the various parts, contrasts between sections, tension and release, unity and so on.

How does it differ from most pieces in that style/genre/form/key etc.

I'm not a great reader but I work through an orchestral score one hand at a time because I can get chromatic intervals wrong when I sight-sing and I struggle with the trumpets and clarinets (in B-flat and sometimes E-flat) though I'm OK with the viola part (and clef) in LH and the violin part in RH (they're mostly only one or two notes at a time).

I listen closely to professional performances for anything I might have missed.
_____________________________

If you want to look closely at the two other movments it'll be good practise for you and move you further from the 'Is this correct?' situation and closer to the 'O, I see that differently!' position. smile

Typically the composers put more into the movements in sonata form so there SHOULD be more to find and that's where I'd like to concentrate most of the energy but if you want to do the other movements and discuss your findings or your findings prompt discussion from the others then let's go there.

When you're seeing things I've missed - we're making real progress here and profiting enormously from the group analysis approach. Imagine how good you'll feel when you're telling me how a movement works! smile
_________________________
Richard

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#1955889 - 09/08/12 12:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1227
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Typically the composers put more into the movements in sonata form so there SHOULD be more to find and that's where I'd like to concentrate most of the energy


It is ALL learning and ALL new. So, happy to follow your suggest of concerted effort on sonatas for now.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Imagine how good you'll feel when you're telling me how a movement works! smile


Terrific, but hope you're also gifted with patience.

If this is OK, what page # now?
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