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You are right. I was going by the score, which measures the pickup as 1. I would never do that, but I just want to be sure we are all in the same place.

It is much more important to talk about how to play those dratted turns!!!

I sense some dissension from the troops in regards to my numbering methodology:

OK, I wasn't sure about this.

Are we good with everything that has been labeled thus far?

I will not number the leading phrases moving forward. Actually, thought I had done this correctly, at least in most cases. But in some instances I was not sure how to handle and suppose I chose the wrong guess. Sorry about this.

I made the mistake first time round. Number 1 goes to the first complete measure that contains the number of beats written in the time signature.

Greener, there is only a problem when two people have two different scores marked with different measure numbers.

You might think that any edition will number measures the same way, but that is simply not the case. Some editions will use the same measure numbers for the measures in 1st and 2nd endings, and there are other discrepancies. I was fine with you numbers, because at least there were NUMBERS!!!

Just a quick check in on where we are and what to work on next with the Clementi Sonatas.

Are we OK now to move along to the Rondo of Sonatine No 5? Or, more to do on Air Suisse?

I think we're done on the Air Suisse, Jeff.

We did the structure, the harmony and the sources and compared it to the Rossini.

OK, thanks. I kind of skipped over the Rossini part (tied up with other non-musical matters the last few days,) but will go back and take a look at this. Then, will move along with the Rondo.

Richard, wanted to ask you something. Back to Bach for a moment. I am working on Little Prelude No. 2 now -- loving it by the way, this one is about my speed for actually reading and playing at the same time , albeit slowly -- of Bach's 6 little preludes.

Question is: What is the thingy on line 3 after the repeat. Is this a partial turn? When I hear Mr. Seeman play it, it does not sound like a full turn. Also on some of the other Preludes (No.1 for example,) he completely skips over some these squiggly things, and also what looks to be a full turn in measure 4 (of No. 1.)

Of course, I can make it sound like he is, but just trying to understand what these things in the score are trying to tell me.

The squiggly thing is a short trill sign with a vertical line through it over the B in Measure 32, yes?

That's a mordent. Played BAB quickly. You might see a natural sign underneath it. A's are natural from M27 to 33.

He has a much more commodious tempo in the second one. I prefer Landowska's tempo for the first. Neither of them play the full turn in the first but Wanda adds a nice trill instead of the mordent in the second.

There's no need to try and keep up with the viridescent vanguard, keystring. He has a voracious appetite but we're always happy to stop and look back if there's anything we've missed.

Hope you both had a nice holiday!

Ooh, where did keystring go?

Sorry - deleted because it sounded whiney (or is the British version somehing like whigny). No hallucinations. And thanks.

That's the one.

Yes, I had not listened much to Wanda previously, as I preferred the Piano version. I agree with the tempo on the first. I would also much prefer to slow the tempo a bit on the second. There are lovely harmonies that are very effective in the flowing 3 beat time signature, which I think work nicer at a slower pace. But, who am I to argue with the Pro's. Anyway will see what I think of this when I learn the whole thing.

Yes, the trill (sounds like double mordent she is using here.) Plus, she is throwing in a few extra little mordents or trills (not sure which) that are not in the score. M4 - she is using more then just the accent note here, and 2nd measure after the repeat, sounds like a mordent.

It's nice, I'll see about using these too, perhaps.

When you interpret a work it's a good idea to listen to professional recordings but as soon as you begin to work on it yourself forget all the things you've heard and try to imagine the piece afresh.

Ask yourself these questions:

What is the general mood of the piece? This will give you a very good indication of tempo, regardless of the composer's marking. Listen to what the composer says but remember who has to play it.

What is each phrase trying to say?

What instrument is each phrase trying to sound like?

How does this fit in with your own emotions and experiences?

If you're going to invest time in it, you need to make it your own. You must play it like you mean it, with passion, as if you had composed it in response to your own soul.

If you speak the truth, people will overlook flaws in the delivery.

I like this answer. My thoughts exactly, but I like hearing it from you, better. And, I really like this prelude.

I shall speak the truth and there will be no flaws in delivery. With this No. 2, that is. No. 4, I'm not so sure about. Still struggling with some of the timing in the second half. More rehearsal needed.

Rondo

Here we go ... how is your patience holding up, Richard?

G Major

Looks like I counted the leading measure as 1, so will stick with these #'s and correct moving forward.

A - M1- M16 (+ half of M17)
B - M17 (other half) - M28 (half of M29)
A - M29-M44 (ends on M45)
C - M45-M59

Development M60-M114

A
B
A
C

Will get back to you on the keys. It looks like just D Major in the what I have identified as the B section, above. Need to look more at what I have called development section, as there could be a bit more at play here.

M60 - M66; E minor
M67 - M77; A major
M78 - ? ; D major
? - M114 ; G major

Not quite sure where to say flipping the switch, but these are the keys I believe we are going through in this section

The Rondo is ostensibly a (groovy kind of) Da Capo ternary form but a (Mindbending) Rondo structure.

We're presented with the main Rondo theme in M1-16/17. We then transition via A7 to D major before the Rondo theme returns in M28/29 where it's subjected to a little variation and a coda tacked on.

The double blows that have characterised the three movements here are never far away in this double page middle section. But the triads are sparse and the harmony ambiguous. There's a V-I cadence in A at M75/76 and then we're off again into tonal ambiguity until D major appears to establish itself more as a dominant than a tonic not landing on a root position D major until M 107 (and even that is not a triad).

I want to call this an ABA piece, B being M60-114. The title being Rondo I guess B would be the D major bit at M17 and C the coda.

M60-114 is unexpectedly long without a return of the rondo theme and it's certainly treated like a development section thematically.

Good work on naming the keys, Jeff, but what's the story with Prelude 4 specifically?

Challenges are:
In the A section, the descending runs -- M8-M9, and again at M10-M11 --; getting these to come even to tempo without rushing is a challenge. I'm doing a much better job with it now and not so worried about it. But, still having an issue with landing on the LH 3rd at the beginning of M10. Not sure why. When I try with all my might to play it softly, I don't hear both notes. Else, there is too much emphasis. I tend to think this is an acoustic adjustment issue, and I would not have this problem with a digital piano. Or, perhaps this is just my excuse. Again though, this is not that big of concern. Bigger concern ahead ...

In section B; I am playing the entire piece close to a presentation tempo that I am happy with now. But, M38 and M40 are throwing out the tempo every time, and the transition back to M41 is not so seamless. Not sure if I am hearing these measures right, and may need to go back to the recordings. Or, perhaps I should try a metronome? I have never used one, but could give it a go.

I think these pieces are excellent for where I'm at in my learning -- both for technical playing ability, and for strengthening my reading (more so No. 2 for the later,) plus I love the harmonies and Bach in general -- and, want to get them as good as I possibly can. These are the areas I am struggling with most at the moment.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks, Richard.

I will prepare the numbering for Sonatine No. 6 now and will post a little later.

Clementi Sonatinen No. 6 - Download

Sonatina 6, measure 1, LMAO!

Take what you need of this for the Prelude, Jeff, and leave the rest.

These areas all have one thing in common; controlling the fingers, particularly the weaker ones - it's not about strength, it's about control. You need to practise controlling them every day.

Hanon provides the sort of exercise they need but not the system. Do exercise 21 at a steady even tempo about the same speed as you intend to do this prelude. One octave up and down is sufficient. When you're comfortable with it do it in dotted rhythm. When you're comfortable with that you need a way to control the fingers without letting them fly. Do Ex. 21 in the RH and Ex. # 1 in LH (at half the speed). One octave up and down for 7 to 10 days then see if it's made a difference in the prelude.If you take to it easily use a different Ex. from Hanon Vol. 1. in LH. Keep the brain engaged and you won't find it boring.

Practise M8 - M11 separately from the rest and also 38-40. Do them half tempo until they're flawless, then up to tempo, then put the parts back together. Emphasise the accents.

If you don't have a metronome count out loud not mentally. It's easier to keep time with a physical action.

M10 - go slow enough that you can put your finger on the F# before you play it and try to use a stroking motion. There are two accents in each bar, point them.

M39 - squeeze the upper G, don't bang it. Play these upper notes like a violin or flute and the lower ones like a 'cello or clarinet.

Don't consider speed until the delivery is flawless. This isn't pizza. Quality is more important than delivery time.

I'm getting lost. A few days ago PianoStudent88 said she was still working on Sonatina 4 and needed to backtrack to it before getting to Air Suisse. Then Richard wrote that "we" are finished with Air Suisse, and now we are on to number 6? I just looked back umpteen pages. I don't believe that the group has completed all of these sonatinas. In fact, the only people left are Greener, Richard, P88, Gary and myself. Unless P88 has caught up, then we are not finished previous pieces. I am still catching up to 3, 4, and Suisse.

I'm reading about a rondo (also apparently finished), and a prelude 4. Rondo of which sonatina? Does the rondo have a prelude, or is this prelude 4 of something else? We did a Chopin prelude 4 a while back - is that the one? I am lost and falling ever further behind. Is there a point in discussing any of the sonatinas that you guys have already finished? Am I the only one? Where is everybody else?

I was interested in the sonatinas I haven't done yet, but I don't know if there is a point if they are considered already done. Nobody will want to discuss what has been discussed and "done".