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#1995686 - 12/06/12 10:47 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Epoxy is fine and appropriate. I like epoxy for this job.

I wanted something that would be very slow drying. These gaps were huge and stubborn. I wanted time to be able to close the gap a little, let the wood relax, close it some more, let the wood relax, etc. I'm also sure that some of the hide glue has managed to work its way somewhat around the sides of the backposts because of the amount of glue I had to use.

Hide glue is used in player work, often to attach the striker pneumatics to the valve board. Those glue joints take a beating. Yet, hide glue will fill some large gaps (when you take things down to scale) and the joints do not separate. In fact, they even maintain their seal.

Also, if that day should ever come when even Grand spinets are valuable because they are made from real wood, the bolts are not epoxied into position. The hide glue can be easily removed.

Also, hide glue was used on most of the old uprights, and many of them are still around.

One reason I think that liquid hide glue has gotten a bad rep is because not everyone is aware that you MUST use fresh liquid hide glue, the earlier from the expiration date the better.


Edited by daniokeeper (12/06/12 11:09 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarity
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Joe Gumbosky
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#1995705 - 12/07/12 12:14 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20759
Loc: Oakland
Just keep in mind that you are gluing it with Jello when you use hide glue. smile
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Semipro Tech

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#1996165 - 12/07/12 09:55 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Blech! Jello... Ugh!

Not even the Cos could get me interested in that stuff. smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2036444 - 02/20/13 01:48 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Hi all - I'm working on a write-up for this procedure ( "Repairing the Separated Back")and would like feedback before I finalize it. I've done probably no more than a dozen of these repairs over the years, and want to know if I'm making any serious errors of omission, or if the procedures as I describe them are off base.

Not concerned at this point with proofreading errors. Will proofread myself, and will send it off to my editor who will spot any remaining mistakes. Just more concerned with content. Oh, and if anyone has an idea for a better title - what I have seems lame, but can't put my finger on a better one. Thanks, Chuck Behm
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"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2036547 - 02/20/13 05:11 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1112
Loc: Québec, Canada
Looks good to me.
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#2036581 - 02/20/13 06:28 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3337
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Chuck, your articles are always highly informative, easy to understand and well illustrated. I have very much enjoyed every one I have read so far. Thank-you!

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#2036703 - 02/21/13 01:01 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Hi Chuck,

I have a question, not a criticism smile

On page 5
"Once the clamps are removed and before the tension is returned to the strings)the original bolts may be returned (after plugging and retapping the holes)... For a more reliable repair, however, the bolt holes may be drilled all the way through the back of the piano so that threaded rods with nuts and washers on either end might be inserted."
I was wondering if you do decide to go with bolts or all-thread rather than the original screws, if there was some reason you would not want to also use the bolts to help close the gap, rather than waiting until after the glue has set up. Too much tension on one part of the plate? Maybe the holes won't line up as well if drilled at this early stage?

Thanks,
-Joe smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2036727 - 02/21/13 02:18 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Chuck,

Another question: you wrote that the separation is pulled back together until beads of glue are squeezed out. Is it advisable to stop at this point (which really depends on the amount of glue inserted), or to continue and close the separation as far as possible?

Epoxy has good gap-filling properties - in fact, I've read in several epoxy instructions that one should be careful not to over-clamp an epoxied joint, as this may starve the joint of glue. Other glues, however, have weaker gap-filling properties, e.g. all the PVA glues...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2036801 - 02/21/13 07:43 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
I was wondering if you do decide to go with bolts or all-thread rather than the original screws, if there was some reason you would not want to also use the bolts to help close the gap, rather than waiting until after the glue has set up. Too much tension on one part of the plate? Maybe the holes won't line up as well if drilled at this early stage? - Joe Gumosky

That's a great question Joe - thanks for asking.

I see two reasons for not drilling the holes at least until the gap is closed, if not later after the glue has set. The first reason is as you mentioned - the holes won't line up well. If the pinblock is tilted forward to begin with, and you drill your hole perpendicular to the plate, the drill bit is going to follow that line as it goes through the back assembly. When you begin to close the gap, the orientation of the front part of the hole (through the pinblock) and the back part of the hole (through the back assembly) is going to change, so that it's no longer a straight line. It's going to end up with the back part of the hole tilted up from the front part. If you've inserted your threaded rod right after drilling, it's going to bind and prevent the gap from closing. Does that make sense?

Secondly, the 1/2" drill produces lots of wood chips as the hole is drilled. The last thing you would want is for chips to get down in the gap before you try to close it.

To me, it seems safest to drill the holes last. Since the clamps I use are pretty much in the way while they're still in place, I don't do the drilling until the glue has cured and the clamps are removed.

However, that being said, I'll try to do some rewording of the promo to allow for variations in methods here. The audience of the article is not the technician after all (this is not meant to be an instructional article). The audience of the promos I write is the customer of the technician. The last thing I want is to have made things too specific, so that the technician's customer questions him as to why he is doing things one way when the written material he provided said he would be doing it another.

Where various methods are used for a particular repair, I try to be vague enough (or else I mention various possible techniques that might be used) so that the technician doesn't have to explain himself to his customer for having a different technique than I happen to use myself.

Returning to your original question, with the number of clamps that I use, I honestly see no reason to use the bolts and washers as a clamping mechanism. However, I'll try to do a bit of rewording so that if a person did want to use a combination of clamps along with the bolts to tighten up the gap it would fit with what's described in the promo. (If for no other reason, this might be important to the technician who doesn't own a lot of clamps!)

I'll work on revising and post the new copy here for you to check out when I'm done. Thanks again. Chuck



Edited by Chuck Behm (02/21/13 07:56 AM)
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2036829 - 02/21/13 09:07 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Mark R.]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
Another question: you wrote that the separation is pulled back together until beads of glue are squeezed out. Is it advisable to stop at this point (which really depends on the amount of glue inserted), or to continue and close the separation as far as possible?

Epoxy has good gap-filling properties - in fact, I've read in several epoxy instructions that one should be careful not to over-clamp an epoxied joint, as this may starve the joint of glue. Other glues, however, have weaker gap-filling properties, e.g. all the PVA glues... - Mark R.

Mark - another good question. When I'm turning down my clamps, I'm getting them as tight as I can, but I'm using Titebond. With the piano in the photographs I put in a lot of glue (using a piece of veneer to work it in) and when the clamps were set I had a running bead of glue showing along the top, but not nearly enough that I was worried that there wasn't enough glue left in the joint to hold.

I'm unfamiliar with how epoxy works for this repair, not having used it ever, I can see your point about not wanting to starve the joint of glue. I'll try to do a bit more rewording of the promo to leave it open as to glue and methods you might chose to use.

Again, keep in mind that this is not meant to be an instructive piece, but more a way for the technician to give his/ her customer enough information to give them the confidence in the procedure to hire the technician to do the job. Chuck



Edited by Chuck Behm (02/21/13 09:09 AM)
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2036912 - 02/21/13 11:35 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6360
Loc: France
Chuck, you are right about the holes not lining but more about the chips, but I have bring back a block by drilling the original screw hole farther, then installing 2 long rods + washers, and it seemm to work fine (without glue in that case, we had not enough time nor the correct glue, but it can be done later). The separation was local, also (only last treble section).


No particular slip when tuning, later.

I understand I would not sell that as a "repair".

In case the 2 holes are not perfectly lining, up to some point, the rod simply bend, probably (not with an 1/2 inch separation).


Edited by Olek (02/21/13 11:37 AM)
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2037051 - 02/21/13 04:20 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 85
Loc: Tampa, FL
Hi chuck,
PVA wood glues like Titebond have cold creep meaning that they can move over time if subjected to prolonged stress, especially if the glue joint is not tight. For that reason I would always replace the screws with bolts to maintain stability of the repair.

As for epoxy, its one of the only adhesives that needs to have some space in the glue joint. Too light a joint can weaken the bond. It is also subject to cold creep so the same procedure as above is recommended.
_________________________
Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com

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#2037180 - 02/21/13 07:45 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Bill McKaig,RPT]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
PVA wood glues like Titebond have cold creep meaning that they can move over time if subjected to prolonged stress, especially if the glue joint is not tight. For that reason I would always replace the screws with bolts to maintain stability of the repair. - Bill McKaig, RPT

Thanks for the comment, Bill. I agree 100% - personally, I always bolt with threaded 1/2" rod with nuts and washers on either side. If it's just a hairline crack, I'll advise the owner of the potential problem, and mark a line across it marked on either side at exactly 1" so I can keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't start spreading.

Again, this write-up is for technicians to give to their customers, and since each promo currently goes out to more than 200 technicians around the country, I try to allow for some "wiggle room" in the details so that technicians don't feel as if they are painted into a corner so to speak.

It's a given that various technicians are going to have their own procedures and specific tools. I'm trying to just give the gist of the repair so that the owner of the piano with potential repair work to be done is satisfied that (1). his piano has a problem which needs to be fixed and (2). the repair proposed is a legitimate one.

In the case of this particular problem and repair, the idea is to be able to give the owner a write-up which legitimatizes the fact that the technician is going to (1).(possibly) pry off the back half of the split lid (which can be easy or very difficult), hopefully not breaking it in the process, (2.) let off nearly all the tension on the strings, thus destroying the tuning, (3.) clamp the wayward plate / pinblock / back assembly together with the sincere hope that nothing breaks (such as the plate!), (4).drill a half dozen or so large holes completely through the back of his piano, (5.) insert large bolts that would look more at home if used on a farm implement and not a musical instrument and (6.) deal with the fact that the piano will probably be in sincere need of a regulation job when the work on the back is completed.

I remember well the first time I proposed this particular job to a customer. I was in my early 20's at the time, the customer in question was a college professor who probably had his fill of young kids my age, and when I tried to explain the work I wanted to do he look at me as if I was suggesting that his wife was a Martian. (He had me do the work eventually, but only after he had called several experience technicians around the area and learned that it was a bona-fide procedure.)

I would have loved to have a well-written explanation of the job complete with photos so that he would have seen that I wasn't just making it up - it was a real repair. It would have made things a lot simpler.

Anyway, I digress. Thanks again, Bill.
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2037281 - 02/22/13 12:51 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the response smile

"I see two reasons for not drilling the holes at least until the gap is closed, if not later after the glue has set. The first reason is as you mentioned - the holes won't line up well. If the pinblock is tilted forward to begin with, and you drill your hole perpendicular to the plate, the drill bit is going to follow that line as it goes through the back assembly. When you begin to close the gap, the orientation of the front part of the hole (through the pinblock) and the back part of the hole (through the back assembly) is going to change, so that it's no longer a straight line. It's going to end up with the back part of the hole tilted up from the front part. If you've inserted your threaded rod right after drilling, it's going to bind and prevent the gap from closing. Does that make sense?

Secondly, the 1/2" drill produces lots of wood chips as the hole is drilled. The last thing you would want is for chips to get down in the gap before you try to close it.

To me, it seems safest to drill the holes last. Since the clamps I use are pretty much in the way while they're still in place, I don't do the drilling until the glue has cured and the clamps are removed. "


I do see the logic of drilling last. But, I think there are circumstances where it may make some sense to drill first, in such cases as the piano in this thread... where only the backposts have worked out of position, but the rest of the glue joints have held.

You make a very, very good point about wood chips. I think that in the future, if I must drill first, i will have a vacuum running as I drill to try to pick up the chips before they even fall into the crack. A very good point!

While we are on the subject of clamps, I was wondering if you, or anyone else here, had any firm opinions re the maximum amount of torque, foot-pounds or inch-pounds, that could safely be applied with the individual clamps, or individual bolts, without cracking the plate.

Thanks smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2037321 - 02/22/13 03:13 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6360
Loc: France
The plate if going back to its previous condition is probably not crack..

Unless it decides to
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2037367 - 02/22/13 07:46 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Bill,

To my knowledge, it is mainly quick-set epoxy that is subject to creep. Slow-set forms more and better cross-links, and creeps much less.

Be that as it may, if all aforementioned adhesives (including epoxy) are subject to creep, then why use adhesive for a separated pinblock at all? Is it only an interim solution, to get the drilling done, and the bolts in place?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2037391 - 02/22/13 08:40 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Olek]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
The plate if going back to its previous condition is probably not crack..- Isaac Oleg

Isaac - I'm not sure about that. I'm no expert as to properties of various metals, but I don't believe cast iron has any "spring" to it. When it is deflected by the tension of the strings, and remains in that deflected position for a length of time, I don't sense that it necessarily wants to go back to its previous condition, as you say.

Could someone with more expertise comment on this? I haven't broken a plate myself with this repair, but I've seen a piano "repaired" by another technician where the plate was in fact cracked at the left strut. I was called in to see what I could do. Nothing at that point that I could see.

Again, as far as my write-up of the repair, the cautionary note concerning the risk of cracking is meant to provide some protection to the technician in case the worst happens. It's the same as warning a customer before a pitch-up that strings could potentially break. I would rather warn them and not have it happen, then not say anything until after the fact.

Joe, to answer your previous question, as long as the plate does return to its former orientation, and as long as you have a method of spreading out the pressure from the clamps (note picture in write up - I use scraps of pinblock material) I think you would have a hard time tightening your clamps by hand to reach a pressure that would break the plate. I don't have any way of measuring inch-pounds of pressure on my clamps, but I tighten them until the crank won't turn by hand any further. Chuck


Edited by Chuck Behm (02/22/13 08:42 AM)
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2037449 - 02/22/13 11:18 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 85
Loc: Tampa, FL
Mark,
As you say, slow-set epoxies creep less, but they are still subject to some creep. The type of epoxy and the type of filler used will have an impact on its ability to resist creep. The surface area is also important. A high quality epoxy with a large surface area will have essentially no creep. A rough rule of thumb is the harder the epoxy sets, the more it will resist creep.

You can read more about epoxy/creep on West Systems' web site. They have an article about testing their products.

There are adhesives that do not creep... hide glue, plastic resin glue, polyurethane glues, and even super glues. Non of these adhesives are gap filling so you need to have a tight joint.

The other problem with pinblock separation repair is there is no way to properly clean the surfaces before applying the glue. Most of these separations are adhesive failures so the joint is full of old glue. The only glue that truly rebonds to itself is hide glue. But hide glue is not that easy to work with in someone's home.

I usually use Epoxy for this repair. I'll apply the epoxy, camp everything closed, drill out the old screw holes and insert new bolts. I try to get a bolt through each back post usually by adding extra bolts as needed.
_________________________
Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com

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#2037552 - 02/22/13 02:45 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Olek]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
The plate if going back to its previous condition is probably not crack..

Unless it decides to


Hi Isaac,

Though there has been some debate on this subject at PW before, I still believe that a plate can warp if it is kept out of its original position. Again, going back to when I was a student taking a grand rebuilding course, (and that's going way back LOL! So my memory may be flawed), I believe we were taught not to overtighten the screws when we initially install the plate. We were to let the plate settle a bit and then tighten the screws up a little at a time over several days, IF I remember smile I think that a bowed plate could possibly be persuaded back to it's original position if done gradually enough. We can "re-warp" it back to it's correct shape.

Unfortunately, I guess you are correct. You know you used too much force after the plate cracks. Or, the plate had an inherent hidden defect and the project was doomed from the start. I just wondered if there might be some sort of standardization as to optimal and maximum torque values. I guess this is one of those areas where you just have to use your own best judgment. Mine has been to observe how the nuts/washers are sinking into the wood on the back.

Chuck, thanks again for the advice. Many, many clamps; baby steps while tightening. It makes good sense!

Btw, this looks like you are doing another excellent professional presentation. Well written and great photography. Very classy! smile

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2037559 - 02/22/13 03:01 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Bill McKaig,RPT]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Bill,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Originally Posted By: Bill McKaig,RPT
The other problem with pinblock separation repair is there is no way to properly clean the surfaces before applying the glue. Most of these separations are adhesive failures so the joint is full of old glue. The only glue that truly rebonds to itself is hide glue. But hide glue is not that easy to work with in someone's home.


I've been wondering about the adhesion of other glues to hide glue residues. Reblitz, for one, warns us that PVA glues (carpenter's glue) make a jelly-like mess when applied over old hide glue.

And whether it's someone else's home or my own, my biggest concern with using hide glue would be its short open time. I'd hate to rush the clamping step.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2037994 - 02/23/13 01:44 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Mark R.]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Hello again, everyone. Based on comments made in this thread, I've done some revision on the write-up I've been working on, and would appreciate comments before I go to press with it. Check out here: "Repairing the Separated Back."

Please keep in mind that the intended audience is not the technician, but the technician's customer, to provide reassurance that the repair is needed and legitimate.

A couple of years ago I went to the dentist and was told that I needed a root canal. Not having had this procedure before, I was uneasy about the prospect. The dentist had a brochure to give me to take home. Reading it over at least took away the fear of the unknown. I wasn't looking forward to it, but I found I was much more relaxed about the idea knowing what to expect.

That, basically, is what this type of write-up is for--to take away the fear of the unknown for the owner of the piano. This is what the piano needs to have done, and this is how I will get it done.

Thanks in advance for any further suggestions before I finalize the copy to the write-up before publication. Chuck
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2038207 - 02/23/13 10:46 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Hi Chuck,

Great write-up.

Since this is for non-techs, my only suggestion would be to slightly expand upon the first paragraph somewhat... so the customers will understand why they need to have the separation repaired and help sell the job. Maybe just a little more on how the separation will affect things like tuning stability, etc. if left uncorrected. Possibly another sentence or so.

Of course, maybe you don't want to get into that much detail so as to just open the door for the tech to begin the conversation with the client? smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2038245 - 02/24/13 12:40 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Thanks for the suggestion, Joe. I'll try to do a bit more reworking of the opening paragraph or two and will post the revision when I'm done.

You are right about the importance of starting a conversation, however. When a customer feels he knows a bit about the topic at hand, I believe he is more open to talking about it. No one likes to feel completely stupid about a subject, so if you the technician can give them material to bring them up to speed,so to speak, it makes a conversation easier. Chuck
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"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2038370 - 02/24/13 10:26 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
To Joe, Isaac, Bill, Ando and anyone else who has taken the time to look over my rough drafts - thanks. Here's the last (or close to it) version with some modification of the first page (according to your suggestions, Joe). I would welcome any last comments. The draft (Repairing the Separated Back - Final Revision) has been sent off to my editor for proofreading and hopefully it will be ready for distribution on the first of March.

In appreciation for your help, anyone who has pitched in with comments, or taken the trouble to read my material over, please accept my special invitation to receive a complimentary promo - your choice of topics. Thanks so much! Chuck Behm


Edited by Chuck Behm (02/24/13 10:54 AM)
_________________________
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515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2038535 - 02/24/13 04:21 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Thank you for your very kind offer. I have decided to ask for the C/A promo.

Thanks Chuck!
Much appreciated. smile

-Joe
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Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2038696 - 02/24/13 09:40 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Joe - Check your email - I've sent the complimentary promo set over the topic you asked for. I hope you're able to put it to good use.

Thanks again for your suggestions (and the suggestions of others). When you're doing a technical write-up it's very helpful to get other opinions on the topic at hand - I appreciate the collective wisdom of everyone who posts here. I have my own methods of doing repairs, but for most repair jobs there are alternatives. It's helpful to hear about those alternatives so that I can do my write-up making an allowance for differing techniques.

If anyone else who has taken the time to read over the drafts of the separated back repair would like a complimentary promo set, here are the available topics. Pick out whichever one you would like. Thanks, Chuck


Edited by Chuck Behm (02/24/13 09:41 PM)
_________________________
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515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2038730 - 02/24/13 11:01 PM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Chuck Behm]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Beautifully done ! smile

Thanks Chuck!
-Joe
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Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2038814 - 02/25/13 03:49 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6360
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
To Joe, Isaac, Bill, Ando and anyone else who has taken the time to look over my rough drafts - thanks. Here's the last (or close to it) version with some modification of the first page (according to your suggestions, Joe). I would welcome any last comments. The draft (Repairing the Separated Back - Final Revision) has been sent off to my editor for proofreading and hopefully it will be ready for distribution on the first of March.

In appreciation for your help, anyone who has pitched in with comments, or taken the trouble to read my material over, please accept my special invitation to receive a complimentary promo - your choice of topics. Thanks so much! Chuck Behm


So Chuck you have now Int recognizing as I forwarded it on the French PW forum wink

Piano owners are always amazed with the number of possible things on old pianos, and delighted to have a good global information on what can be done to repair.

But technicians of course also, thanks !

Comment from a friend : "blind" nut would be more nice looking (less easy to find may be, more expensive also)

Those long shiny screws for piano plates are expensive, I wonder if the American wood screws have different threading than European ones ?








Edited by Olek (02/25/13 04:29 AM)
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#2038894 - 02/25/13 07:57 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: Olek]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 620
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
Comment from a friend : "blind" nut would be more nice looking (less easy to find may be, more expensive also)-Isaac

Isaac - Thanks for the idea. I guess I've seen those in the past, but it never occured to me to consider making use of them for this repair. I would think from the back side in particular they would be useful. The big protruding bolts and nuts aren't particularly attractive when the back of the piano is exposed. I'm not sure going into the plate if they would work, but maybe so.

I'll check my local hardware store as to their availability. I'm sure I could order online as well, but whenever possible, I try to buy local.

Thanks again, and thanks for forwarding the post! Chuck
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

Top
#2038938 - 02/25/13 10:06 AM Re: Question re typical pinblock separation in a vertical [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6360
Loc: France
For the back I would try to make a deeper hole if possible, have the bolt embedded, I believe the front part is more where those large nuts and bolts could look a little surprising

when doing the job on site it may be a good idea to use a "martyr" (wooden plank) and not to make a hole in the wall behind the piano wink
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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