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Yes... this is it. Of course it's possible to play "correct" notes and not be able to recognize the tune, but I think one should be able to play lines where the changes are recognizable before venturing on to the more abstract stuff.

But this generalization cannot occur without stating the chord tones. For example, if the chord is Cmaj7 and you're playing a solo on 9, 11, 13, then you're stating Dm7. Depending on the context, one would lose connection with the original form.

Now there's another side to this. Some melodies are based on the extensions. Stella being a strong example (opening melody note is 'A' on E-7b5, which is the 11th).

Teachers often tell students early on not to play roots and other basic notes, but I think that is to get you to think about the other notes that are available. In the beginning this is hard to do. But the basic notes are important and shouldn't be avoided. Here is where I think transcribing helps. Even just a little bit of it will show how often players use the basic notes in their lines. But more importantly, it shows how they move towards them.

Scott, but it is those same transcriptions that show that the strongest note in a solo is the 3rd. I don't mean avoid the root but it's a release point. If you're raising tension, then that's not where I would go.

This is all theoretical though since, I'm not just thinking of melody. Melody has it's own structure too though as Beeboss has stated before, it's hard to find a "rule" about it. As some heads show, melody can be driven by extensions as well (like I said with Stella).

So in some ways, it has to come with a deeper understanding of the tune I suppose. The original composer succeeded with something so it's best to stick to their formula (the melody). Simple enough rule I suppose and commonly stated by many teachers as the overriding guide to good solos (at least as a starting point).

>>As Aeborsold said somewhere, the right note note is only a half step away so in his mind there is no wrong note.
I think Aebersold's point is that if you feel like you've played a wrong note, 1/2 step above will feel right.


>> Certainly on a cursory level, Miles Davis would have too many wrong notes because he would ride on a note over several chords using an extension like 9 or 13.
That might well be, but take So What for example. It really doesn't get outside at all. I think in the entire solo, he plays one passing tone, and mostly lays out 1357 of the D-7, with a brief tension on those extensions. That solo is marvelous by the way.

>> But that's because Bebop, was black and white on this rule.
I don't understand that statement.

>> Yes... this is it. Of course it's possible to play "correct" notes and not be able to recognize the tune, but I think one should be able to play lines where the changes are recognizable before venturing on to the more abstract stuff.
A good example is McCoy. Much of this stuff completely loses you and goes outside both in melody and harmony, but McCoy is very very strong at putting the listener right back onto the melody, and generally stating the 1 and 5 of chords.


Overall, I just don't buy the whole rule thing. At all. Because otherwise, I could just program a computer to do it. Well, Band in a Box does it. The solos are pretty good actually.
Surely there's something more.

But that alone breaks the "rule", if you subscribe to it, because Aeborsold's statement translates to "NO WRONG NOTE" if you are "IN THE SCALE". The rule in Forward Motion, etc. is more specific than that which is that strong solos state the harmony (1-3-5-7).

Whether or not you subscribe to the rule, it is pretty clear that many beginning players meander around a scale directionless. All it states in the Levine book is each chord has a "scale", which imply that 6-7 notes are all equal.

Now anyone who's listened a lot in jazz know that that's not true. The notes are not equal. So some people, like Hal Galper, and many others have arrived at some rule.

I think these rules are great for these meandering players. Like I said, I myself have made my own interpretation of this 'rule' and though in theory it is still the basis of what I do, I have clearly stretched beyond it.

Regarding Bebop -- the whole point of the Bebop scale is to land on Chord tones on downbeats. That's why it's arranged that way. If you don't look at Bebop as being a particular structure then you'll find a lot of disagreement with people who are heavy on bebop because they keep telling me this.

Me, I'm told I don't sound bebop-py so my opinion doesn't count

Here are some recordings to hear what I am talking about.

Listen to this one first to see if you can recognize the tune. All of the notes are "correct" and for the most part they are melodic...

http://www.box.com/s/xcf31imj68444jg66xsn

Now listen to this and see if the tune is more recognizable. I think it is...

http://www.box.com/s/dfsxrbklrx0bfnnvbzi2

Here's the first track again with bass to clarify how it fits the changes...

http://www.box.com/s/mucar4ozzyitymt3r74q

And the second track with the same bass for comparison...

http://www.box.com/s/vj499ck762k2jneh4uuj

Regarding the bebop scale... I never think of this scale. I know what it is but it doesn't guide my playing at all. No scale does really, as I am often blending scales when I play. It's the "tonal gravity" that guides what I play I think. Maybe alot of my playing sounds bebop, but I wouldn't say that is my intention. I just hear things that way.

Unfortunately I don't know this tune but the harmony is clear enough when you made it clear. The 'failed' example though is so far from the harmony that it seems like an extreme.

Let's take a tune like Autumn Leaves for example, which can be played in one scale. This is actually more difficult to think about since in theory, all your notes can be in the scale and yet the solo can sound pretty bad if you're just randomly hitting scale notes.

In a modulating tune, you are forced to 'play the changes' and it's not as obvious that your note choices are actually poor (to the casual listener).

That's an interesting commentary since people make a direct comment to me that I don't sound like bebop at all.

So there's a particular structure and style to it that people understand are identifiers. Perhaps you know what they are since it's apparent that you hear it that way.

>> But that alone breaks the "rule", if you subscribe to it, because Aeborsold's statement translates to "NO WRONG NOTE" if you are "IN THE SCALE". The rule in Forward Motion, etc. is more specific than that which is that strong solos state the harmony (1-3-5-7).

I read it completely differnetly. I see as mere advice to somebody who is trying to improvise, on how to save a note. Nothing to do with scale.

>>Regarding Bebop -- the whole point of the Bebop scale is to land on Chord tones on downbeats. That's why it's arranged that way. If you don't look at Bebop as being a particular structure then you'll find a lot of disagreement with people who are heavy on bebop because they keep telling me this.
I think you are mixing Bebop and the made-up bebop scale. Actually the whole concept of bebop is also made up. How is Charlie Parker different from Lester Young? The main difference are the frantic tempo and quick changes.

In fact, if you ask me, Keith Jarrett sounds an awful lot like bebop, and particularly like Bud Powell and Charlie Parker. Especially on some of the bebop tune that he plays like Bouncing with Bud, or Bopbe where the tempos are just intense but the flow of 8th notes is superb.

As for tunes like Giant Steps or Confirmation, it's almost impossible not to sound bebop on it. Unless you seriously revamp the tune - make them funky or latin, or something.

I don't know if that is what Scott is talking about, but I am definitely in the camp of playing tunes, not playing changes, and the secret is in mastery of very small sections of the tunes, until you can play it entirely.

I really disliked Hal Galper's book btw. I think his tone is really arrogant in it. He seems to imply he got to the bottom of it all, because "He's studied it hard". Sorry, I just don't buy it. As far as the approach of soloing with 1/2 notes , then quarter notes, and neighborhood tones and what not. I think it's a terrible way to approach improv. And finally, the whole book reads like a Chinese manual translated into English. It is very poorly written. I do not understand how it got that much attention.

>>Unfortunately I don't know this tune but the harmony is clear enough when you made it clear.
$100 that you do. Heck, make it $1000

I have to say, I needed the bass though ....

That's a very interesting game.

Well we can agree to disagree on Hal Galper.

If you listen to a player without harmonic structure in his playing, is the answer to just say "practice more", or is it to follow one structure? Plenty of books say the same thing as Galper. In fact most books say the same thing. Ligon, Shelly Berg, Baker...on and on.

Teachers in jazz programs have gotten more success introducing structure so it persists.

Those heavily immersed in the bebop style are very particular about the language/vocabulary since they are quick to point out that I don't have that vocabulary. And that's true.

Keith Jarrett is heavily bebop based as you have discovered.

Anyway, there are philosophical differences here and this will continue forever since each person can only look at their own experience and what worked for them.

Obviously not something I practice often as it was not apparent to me.

Fair enough

>> Obviously not something I practice often as it was not apparent to me.
It may not be in the key that you usually play it in. I will say no more, maybe I'll have a go and see if i have more luck at it.

I think this is a really cool game, so I'd like to play.
A slightly more osbcure tune, but quite famous nonetheless. Listen to the one without bass first and see if you can guess.

By itself
http://www.box.com/s/uz8vntftmb5afn1nyx2x

With bass:
http://www.box.com/s/cz45dmkte22kq6jts54g

Here's my submission for Scott's tune:
http://www.box.com/s/o6vh9sq1hzptvb9lr8n5

Piano not tuned in almost a year, feels almost painful letting the notes ring. Gotta do something about that...

I think I have it. I'll pm you to see. I needed the bass, but once I knew it, I could hear it in the lines alone fairly well. Nice job Knotty!

You got it!

No idea on either.