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#2023922 - 01/30/13 09:03 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Greener
Chopin Waltz in C# Minor - Op 64 No. 2
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

The central section is in D flat - the enharmonic major of C# minor.

Yes, I see this by the key signature, but I am not sure what this means "enharmonic major of C# minor". Is this the first time we have come across this?


The parallel minor of C# minor is C# major. "Enharmonic" means "same pitch, different name." C# and Db are enharmonic equivalents. So instead of writing the central section in C# major with 7 sharps, Chopin writes it enharmonically in Db major with 5 flats. The sound is the same as if he had written it in C# major. The aural relationship between C# minor and C# major is the same as the aural relationship between C# minor and Db major: minor to parallel major.
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#2023924 - 01/30/13 09:10 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
OK, thanks. Yes, I do recall this now. So any major or minor key will have an enharmonic equivalent and the choice of writing this with flats vs. sharps will be mere convenience.
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#2023930 - 01/30/13 09:30 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
No, only some keys have enharmonic equivalents, at least if you want to avoid double sharps and flats.

For example, if every key had an enharmonic equivalent, then what would be the enharmonic equivalent of C major? It would be B# major. Hmmm.

C major: C D E F G A B
B# major: B# C## D## E# F## G## A##

Ugh. So we don't normally talk about B# major as a key.

Here is an exploration to find the normal major keys with enharmonic equivalents: work around the circle of fifths in the sharp direction and write down the major keys and their number of sharps: C 0, G 1, D 2, A 3, etc. up to C# 7.

Then work around the circle of fifths in the flat direction and write down the major keys and their number of flats: C 0, F 1, Bb 2, etc. up to Cb 7.

Now compare your lists. Where do you find enharmonic equivalents? You should find three pairs of enharmonic equivalents.

What pairs did you find? How many sharps and flats in each? What is the minimum number of sharps or flats for a major key to have for it to have a normal enharmonic equivalent?

Add the number of sharps and flats in each pair. (For example, C# major 7 sharps and Db major 5 flats adds up to 12.) You should get the same sum for each pair. What is it?

(The number of sharps and flats adding up to 12 is true even for the ridiculous abnormal pairs like C and B# above: count the number of sharps in the B# note list; double sharps count for 2).
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#2023931 - 01/30/13 09:31 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
There is a similar exploration for minor keys and enharmonic equivalents. Do the major key exploration first, and then I'll give pointers on how to get started with the minor key exploration.
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#2024100 - 01/30/13 03:01 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
only some keys have enharmonic equivalents
...
work around the circle of fifths in the sharp direction and write down the major keys and their number of sharps: C 0, G 1, D 2, A 3, etc. up to C# 7.

Then work around the circle of fifths in the flat direction and write down the major keys and their number of flats: C 0, F 1, Bb 2, etc. up to Cb 7.
...
Where do you find enharmonic equivalents? You should find three pairs of enharmonic equivalents.

What pairs did you find? How many sharps and flats in each? What is the minimum number of sharps or flats for a major key to have for it to have a normal enharmonic equivalent?

Enharmonic equivalents:

Db (5 flats) = C# (7 sharps)
Gb (6 flats) = F# (6 sharps)
Cb (7 flats) = B (5 sharps)

... if I am following correctly.

Minimum number of sharps or flats thus, for an equivalent is 5.
_________________
My pause in responding was due to an appointment with the red dot. I wish I could say "it went fabulous" instead I will simply say ..."I have a recording".
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#2024138 - 01/30/13 04:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Correct on the enharmonic equivalents for major keys! Well done.

For minor scales, do the same exploration: write down the minor keys around the sharp side of the circle of fifths, with their number of sharps: Am 0, Em 1, Bm 2, etc. up to A#m 7. Then write down the minor keys around the flat side of the circle of fifths, with their number of flats: Am 0, Dm 1, Gm 2, etc. up to Abm 7.

(You can find these quickly by taking the relative minor of each of the major keys you already wrote down: go down a minor third from the major key to get the relative minor key. Remember that a minor third has to skip a letter in the note names, as well as being three half-steps. For example the note a minor third below B is G#, not Ab.)

Now identify the enharmonic pairs. They should turn out to be the relative minors of the enharmonic pairs you already found for the major keys.
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#2024233 - 01/30/13 07:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Correct on the enharmonic equivalents for major keys! Well done.

For minor scales, do the same exploration:
...
(You can find these quickly by taking the relative minor of each of the major keys
...

Enharmonic equivalents:

Bbm (5 flats) = A#m (7 sharps)
Ebm (6 flats) = D#m (6 sharps)
Abm (7 flats) = G#m (5 sharps)

So far this explores enharmonic major to major and minor to minor. In our score, we have C# minor moving to the enharmonic major, Db.

I have a feeling it is not going to be as simple as just substituting some of these majors for minors ... hmmm ...
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#2024247 - 01/30/13 07:46 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Greener
In our score, we have C# minor moving to the enharmonic major, Db.

I have a feeling it is not going to be as simple as just substituting some of these majors for minors ... hmmm ...
You need a rest, Jeff! smile

There's nothing more to cover. The waltz moves from C# minor to C# major or it's enharmonic equivalent, Db major.
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#2024265 - 01/30/13 08:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Loc: Maine
Well done on the minor pairs, Jeff.
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#2024267 - 01/30/13 08:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
You need a rest, Jeff! smile

Fabulous idea. Thank you, Richard ...
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#2024498 - 01/31/13 08:34 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Just a further thought to what you've just been doing...

D'you remember we talked about the circle/ribbon of fifths earlier? I use a ribbon rather than a circle because I developed it for my chord playing on guitar and it tells me at a glance what notes are used in the scale and what chords are used in the keys.

You might like to write/draw/print it out and keep over your desk/piano/other convenient area.

The first row is the number of sharps/flats in the key/scale:

7b, 6b, 5b ... 5#, 6# 7#

The second row is the name of the Major key with that many flats:

Cb, Gb, Db ... B, F#, C#

The third row is a minor third below, the relative minor:

Ab, Eb, Bb ... G#, D#, G#

The fourth row is another minor third below:

F, C, G ... E#/F, B#/C, Fx/G

You might add a fifth row yet another minor third below:

D, A, E ... Cx/D, Gx/A, Dx/E

You'll notice that the first three columns and the last three are enharmonic equivalents.


Major row: subdominant, tonic, dominant
Minor row: supertonic minor, relative/submediant minor, mediant minor
Third row: leading not (major)/diminished, n/a, n/a
Last row: leading note (minor)/diminished 7th, n/a, n/a

Note the shape of this box:

| F | C | G |
|---|---|---|
| D | A | E |
|---|---|---|
| B |
|---|
| G#|

In a major key, here C major, the tonic is upper middle. The dominant is the right hand man.
The sub-dominant is the sinister side. The leading note is at the bottom left a knight's move away and the notes of the diminished/diminished 7th in the left column. These are added to the dominant note to form the dominant 7th/dominant 7b9. (Note the b9 appears here as the enharmonic #8!)

In a minor key, here A minor, dominant will frequently be a major chord using the sharped seventh, the note a knight's move away, the bottom of the left column.

You'll get used to the way this grad is traversed in tonal music and how the switch from major to minor or vice versa allows a jump of three columns.

If you are/get into rock, if you find the major keys in the minor row then the top row gives you the bVI, bIII and bVII chords (also the parallel minor key signature on the flat side. It's down and left on the sharp side).
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#2024720 - 01/31/13 03:27 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Loc: Toronto
Yes, agree. This will be an excellent resource.

I've documented it and hopefully it is close. Could you kindly review and advise of any corrections that may be needed.

Ribbon of 5ths



Edited by Greener (01/31/13 05:04 PM)
Edit Reason: Updated with corrections
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#2024743 - 01/31/13 04:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
That's pretty much it, Jeff. My only qualm is the flats in the bottom middle where I'd prefer to see sharps. The seventh of G minor is F# not Gb!

You might add a bold line between 5b and 4b and between 4# and 5# so you can see more quickly where the ends overlap.
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#2024768 - 01/31/13 05:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
COMPLETE

I've made the corrections and uploaded again. Previous link has been updated. But is listed again here ...

Ribbon of 5ths

A great resource for anyone that wants to make use of it.
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#2024779 - 01/31/13 05:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Good job, Jeff.
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Richard

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#2024814 - 01/31/13 05:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Thanks. And Thank you for the idea and content, Richard.

... back to the Bahamas now ...

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#2025334 - 02/01/13 01:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Chopin Nocturne in E flat, Op. 9 No. 2

I am starting to work on the coda and can see that this is going to be some fun. For one thing I'm having a hard time just reading the notes. So much for the chords here. I'm writing in the notes and going back and listening to make sure I am getting it right.

Everything to this point has been straight forward as it is really just variations of the same two themes. It all still needs a ton of work of course, and perhaps that is where I should stay for the time being. This last section I will work on in chunks. This is clearly going to be the most challenging section.
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#2027332 - 02/05/13 09:15 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Chopin Nocturne in E flat, Op. 9 No. 2

Here is a final set of chords that will complete the coda. I'm not able to play this section yet. Knowing the chords though will hopefully assist in learning it. I am finding it a tricky section to read.

M25
1 - Abm
2 - "
3 - "
4 - "
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - "
11 - "
12 - "

M26
1 - Abm
2 - "
3 - "
4 - "
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - "
11 - "
12 - "

M27
1 - Bb11
2 - "
3 - "
4 - "
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - F7
11 - "
12 - "

M28
1 - Bb11
2 - "
3 - "
4 - Bb
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - "
11 - "
12 - "

M29
1 - Abm
2 - "
3 - "
4 - "
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - "
11 - "
12 - "

M30
1 - Abm
2 - "
3 - "
4 - "
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Eb
8 - "
9 - "
10 - F7
11 - "
12 - "

M31
1 - Bb11
2 - "
3 - "
4 - G7
5 - "
6 - "
7 - Cm
8 - "
9 - "
10 - F7
11 - "
12 - "

M32 - Bb7
M33 - Eb
M34 - Eb
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#2028044 - 02/06/13 11:57 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Chopin Nocturne in E flat, Op. 9 No. 2

I've not looked at your chords closely, Jeff. They look fine, and I wouldn't be expecting harmonic fireworks in the coda; technical dazzle perhaps, but nothing harmonically unsettling.

Look again at M1-4 and look at the chord progression he's using.

I don't use Roman's very often but look at the relationships we have here. From chord I classical music moves most readily to IV or V. I-vi is a common move. But not I-VI, the submediant major. This may be fine nowadays, (Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay comes to mind, but it's unsettling tonally, setting up the expectation of a move to ii (major or minor). Here we go to the minor via Bb minor, the dominant as a minor chord in a major key (!), then diminished.
The dominant Bb major appears only briefly at the beginning of M3 as we wander to G major (that's another non-diatonic chord where we'd normally expect G minor) the tension is increasing as we're far from home (and we've only just started).

Finally in M4 the dominant returns (as a tense eleventh chord) with a crescendo that comes crashing down on a forte tonic chord with a 6-7-8 resolution. And after having wiped the floor with our emotions he proceeds to do it all again with bells on as he decorates the melody line and look at that crescendo in M6 pointing the appoggiaturas as they fall on the C major arpeggio.

How calm does the dominant measure M9 feel now?
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#2028573 - 02/07/13 07:28 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
This is very interesting. I had no idea there was this much going on, or the uniqueness of it. The move to VI is the C major at the beginning of M2? If I am understanding this right, in the second iteration of this measure (M6), the melody passes b9, 11, b13 and b9 again. Is this what you mean by "pointing the appoggiaturas" back to the C major?

Yes, agree. M9 is a very soothing contrast to everything up to this point. I've really liked the sound of this transition all along, but had no idea of why it had such an impactful effect. The every beat chord changes at the end of this section in M12, ending on the dominant and starting all over again, I also really like (and enjoy playing) in this section.

I've also observed how M4 (the crashing back to tonic) gets more interesting with each iteration. There is not much difference in M8, but clearly more colour and feeling of suspense in M16. And, very slick off beats in M24.

Do you suppose Chopin actually had in mind the harmonic fireworks he was developing (in contrast to other works of his time) and was striving for this as he was composing? Or, was it more like "this sounds nice, I think I'll put this here".
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#2028590 - 02/07/13 08:01 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 No. 2

The diatonic chords of Eb are Eb, Ab and Bb majors (I, IV and V), F, G and C minors (ii, iii, and vi). I would expect C minor rather than C major in M2.

Measure 6 is an arpeggio of C major, G, C, C, E, G, G. The appoggiatura notes, Db, F, and Ab all have accent marks (>) over them making them 'pointed'. They would would otherwise have been unaccented notes off the beat.

I don't think I could begin to understand what was going on in Chopin's head. My experience is that great composers are great from birth. They get better with age or experience but Chopin, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, even Lennon and McCartney were writing 'characteristically' from the outset of their musical careers.

I suspect that Chopin knew what effect he wanted to achieve and knew instinctively how to arrive at it.
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#2037900 - 02/23/13 10:47 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 No. 2

So when will we get to hear you perform this piece on the new CA95, Richard? Or, have you somewhere already and I missed it. If not, here would be a good place.

It is going to be some time for me on this one. I'm playing it all the way through now, but the coda still needs a lot of work.

Also, I'm spending more time on OP 64, No 2 and really liking the Piu mosso. I'm finding the fingering suggestions quite helpful and had never paid much notice to them up to now. Thinking of this one for the next (May) recital. I know it has been done a lot, but I've been working on so much Chopin of late, I want to present at least one of them.

Meanwhile though, happy to continue discussion on the nocturne and it also has practice priority. Is there more to look at?
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#2038074 - 02/23/13 04:33 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Chopin Nocturne in Eb, Op. 9 No. 2

You've probably looked at enough on the Nocturne. Is there anything else you can see or anything causing difficulties?

There's nothing too adventurous after the opening and certainly not in the coda.

_____________________________


I promised in the RST thread to post photos of the new CA95 but thought it might be nice to accompany them with an idea of what it sounds like so I've been trying to string together "five easy pieces". I didn't want to pick something painstaking but I don't want to sound like a plonker either (perhaps plinker or plunker might be more appropriate for piano). I think I've settled on my five; an easy piece each by Bach, Beethoven and Brahms plus the Nocturne and a piece by Liszt. These are all pieces I've known for over twenty years (over thirty for the Chopin and Liszt) so I won't be bothered by red dot or hesitations from unfamiliarity.

I've made some preliminary recordings to see how I sound and to make sure I'm playing close enough to what's on the score. It's not as easy as I had originally anticipated despite picking easy material.

I also didn't want to get too close to the ABF or the Mendelssohn recitals but now that we have a date for the latter I can measure my time better.

I'll probably stick 'em in the RST thread in a week or two but I'll let you know on this one when I do.
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#2038164 - 02/23/13 08:59 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Chopin Nocturne in Eb, Op. 9 No. 2
... Is there anything else you can see or anything causing difficulties?

I've not worked out the timing correctly in M29 yet. I'm sure it will come, it just hasn't yet. I just need to spend some time specifically on this measure and also M32, of course. For M32, once this is up to tempo, I recall you mentioned you do not count the quavers. So, what is the secret to ensure the correct # of quaver iterations when at full tempo?

Aside from the technical challenge of the coda -- when at a presentable tempo -- I'm not finding the piece all that difficult. It was at first for the stride, but after getting the first 4 measures, it has been much easier from there on.

"I've made some preliminary recordings to see how I sound and to make sure I'm playing close enough to what's on the score. It's not as easy as I had originally anticipated despite picking easy material."

Recording is brutal. I've recorded Op 102 No 6 and it is fine and ready for submission to the recital. Op 102 No 1 though, sounds terrible. I don't think it is going to come off so great with recording. Sounds fine when I play it, but the recording is not fine. Thankfully lots of time left now.

I look forward to hearing what you put together.
_____________

I looked at a rebuilt 1944 Heintzman Yorke today. It will be a stretch for me, but I just might be buying a new (old) piano. It's a nice machine. If I go forward with it I might have in time for 2nd Mendelssohn piece.
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#2038380 - 02/24/13 10:40 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Chopin Nocturne in Eb, Op. 9 No. 2

M29
Overlay a Mercedes emblem (three spoked wheel) on standard orthogonal and diagonal lines, the eight main compass points, and run your eye around it at an even rhythm.

You get a rhythm along the lines of 'eating some banana dessert with cream'

I use an unrepeatable sentence for the measure ( wink ) but it uses the rhythm of 'give me a peach and a banana, along with my tea'. Note the comma after banana to emphasise the phrasing in the score. Once you get the hang of it slowly you learn the actual rhythm and you'll be able to play it at speed quite easily without bothering with the sentence.

M32
I don't count the repetitions, I don't use a sentence. I accelerate quickly up to speed and slow down gradually. I might do the thirteen written iterations, I might do seventeen. I've never counted. I go by what feels right at the time. I doubt the audience count it either. Liszt did worse things with Chopin's music - in Chopin's presence.
______________________

Recording easy pieces is harder than I thought. You can get away with a few wrong'uns in the turbulent climax of a Beethoven sonata. It's another problem entirely in the Bach/Petzold Minuet in G.

I'm trying the Bach Prelude in D, bwv 936, that you did in the previous recital and it sounds so nondescript on playback. Ah, me!

Originally Posted By: Greener
...I'm not finding the piece all that difficult. It was at first...
This is how I am with most of my pieces. Once they're in memory, unless they're particularly troublesome (e.g. Moonlight, 3rd movement), they just roll out effortlessly.

Good luck with the new piano. If it's a stretch, make sure it's the right one for you.
_________________________
Richard

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#2038882 - 02/25/13 07:32 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Chopin Nocturne in Eb, Op. 9 No. 2
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

M29
Overlay a Mercedes emblem (three spoked wheel) on standard orthogonal and diagonal lines, the eight main compass points, and run your eye around it at an even rhythm.
...
Once you get the hang of it slowly you learn the actual rhythm and you'll be able to play it at speed quite easily without bothering with the sentence.

M32
...
I might do the thirteen written iterations, I might do seventeen. I've never counted. I go by what feels right at the time. ... Liszt did worse things with Chopin's music - in Chopin's presence.

I'll work more on the coda this week to get sorted out. Very cool with your response for M32 and makes a lot of sense. I'll keep this in mind, but a long way from having this up to a tempo that feels right yet.
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Good luck with the new piano. If it's a stretch, make sure it's the right one for you.

Thanks, and good advise again. I am starting to get excited about the whole idea and through my early research have learned a ton already. For one thing, not all Heintzman's are created equal. There is quite a complicated past with this company. Some Heintzman's (Heintzman & Co.) are very good instruments (Steinway's of Canada,) while others are very good pieces of Furniture (Product of Heintzman, Sold by Heintzman, or just Heintzman) from the more recent Sklar Peplar years or sold by the distributor network. Plus, there was Gerhard Heintzman (Newphew of Theodore) who produced decent pianos (plus second line brands like Nordheimer,) but not of the same class as Heintzman & Co.

Today, Heintzman is built in China (no problem there) but they are not on par with the originals.

Not sure you needed to know all this ... but I'm having fun digesting it.

Bottom line is, I know what to look for now and may not need to pay a fortune to get it as there are some later model Heintzman & Co. that do come available from time to time (eyeing one now,) are in good shape and can be had at a bargain. I think I will be passing on the 1945 after all.

________________
One other tidbit that was pointed out to me and I think is very valid -- just this morning -- and I believe you have also eluded to. Do not buy it because it is a Heintzman, Steinway, any make or particular year. Buy it if you like it for how it is for you, and the quality and value you seek, regardless of any brand or anything else.

I'm interested in Heintzman because my Dad was always a huge fan of them and I have a wee bit of respect for his opinion. Nonetheless, all I can do is my best research and make a decision from there.

So far though ... I'm still very keen on this other Heintzman and will look at it this week smile




Edited by Greener (02/25/13 11:27 AM)
Edit Reason: Further research and consideration

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#2039516 - 02/26/13 10:07 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Tempo is a funny thing.

My teacher never mentioned tempo much. I'd play away at a speed I could manage/read until I had it in a state where I could play it error free from memory at the next lesson and needed more guidance on a newer piece, which would then take over. Some weeks later she'd ask to hear the piece again and without any deliberate intervention I'd be flying through it.

I never deliberately tried to speed up a piece until I tackled Chopin's Op. 64/1 waltz in D-flat and quickly learned the perils of forcing speed. It deteriorated quite quickly into a piece I could no longer perform accurately and even now, over thirty years later, I have to pitter-patter through it at a restricted and controlled pace to avoid missing notes in the ornaments; I still can't enjoy just playing it.

So now, once I get a fast piece in memory I try to avoid listening to performances of it at faster speeds than I play it until my own speed is close to it. The speed comes organically and naturally. I believe it's fundamental to the music and changes with different touches and dynamic levels. I find it's better in the long run to restrict the speed and maintain accuracy than go too fast too soon and introduce sloppiness.

I also believe I play at a speed I imagine the piece and not how it's sounding on the instrument. I couldn't believe how fast I played the Romance Sans Paroles in the previous ABF Recital. You need a really light touch to play it that fast. It may have been exacerbated by overplaying it while trying to record it but I don't remember playing it that fast. It also varies, I've found, by what I've been playing before it. I play it slower after Schumann's Traumerei than after Bach's Invention No. 8.

I'm now restricting myself to three plays a day for a piece I'm recording plus going over an extract from the middle or end of it to establish the starting tempo.
_________________________
Richard

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#2039649 - 02/26/13 01:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
I have found my dream piece. It would be a piano reduction of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. This is somewhat odd because I don't particularly like the one piano (actually pianola) version I've heard -- it's missing of course all the beautiful orchestral colours of the real thing (plus the pianola had absolutely awful tone of its own). But it is a different experience playing music inside of it rather than listening to it, and it would be wonderful to be able to with my own two hands produce those melodies and rhythms and interactions.

Now to actually find a piano score.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2040675 - 02/28/13 10:00 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I find it's better in the long run to restrict the speed and maintain accuracy than go too fast too soon and introduce sloppiness.

Concur absolutely on this point now. It is not how I had approached practice in the past (pre-PW,) but it is now.

I'm not convinced the pro's always nail the right tempo for the piece either. Often they do, of course. But, If I don't like it there I'm not going to play it there. I play the Bach no. 2 prelude much slower now and hear the harmonies better. I think no 4 though, belongs a little brisker.

In the end, it is our own interpretation. I don't care for how Valentina just flies through the Piu Mosso of Op 64 no 2, for example.
_________________________

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#2040687 - 02/28/13 10:27 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1222
Loc: Toronto
Any interest in looking at Bach/Hess Chorale from Cantata no. 147, adaptation for piano? I managed to find a score for it (looks like image scans, but the real deal) and a couple of things I'm already not sure about.
_________________________

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