Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
62 registered (AtlantisHero, Adypiano, AZNpiano, allakart, 12 invisible), 1186 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#1996725 - 12/09/12 03:34 AM Rusty strings
newinstru? Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/12
Posts: 113
Loc: SoCal
Thank you very much in advance for answering a couple of questions ( or pointing me to a post I haven't found yet):

How rusty is too rusty?

What is the overall effect of rusty strings on the sound or functionality ( or whatever) on the piano.



Edited by newinstru? (12/10/12 12:45 AM)

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1996786 - 12/09/12 07:42 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
In my opinion, an instrument with very rusty strings has other problems that prevent me from clearly hearing any insufficiencies in tone produced by the rust. The major problem with rusty strings is breakage. If the strings are breaking, then they are too rusty.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#1996801 - 12/09/12 08:29 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1771
Loc: London, England
When I worked in a rust- prone district, I always bit the bullet and tuned, pitch raising if necessary. I was always pleasantly surprised. It seemed to me at the time that an even coating of rust or oxidation presented no problem. Rusting had to be quite advanced visibly before it became a problem. Isolated pits of rust, however, create weak spots in the string and consequential possibility of breakage.

I sometimes wonder if, when moisture in the atmosphere settles on the strings, does capillary action draw the moisture towards the termination points creating a rust spot where the string is weakened anyway by bending and metal fatigue. Perhaps our scientists can confirm or refute the possibility of this. Also, it seems, again, purely empirically, that the rusting process slows down past a certain point? Any opinions?.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#1996837 - 12/09/12 09:54 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Unlike the surface patina that forms on copper, rust provides no protection to the ongoing process of rusting/corrosion. The only "rust" that prevents further rusting is bluing, which if oiled, will provide some protection. (*Note, never oil anything related to the tuning pins/strings/termination points). When I encounter rusted strings I make sure the termination points get a treatment of CLP. Strings are always let down in tension a touch before going sharp. On pianos that are exposed to high humidity/rusting conditions I treat the strings with Eezox, it is about the only thing I know of that will completely stop the process and prevent future rusting. It is non/petroleum dry film based product that does not rely on adhesion alone to protect. It will not allow moisture/water under it because it is heavier than water and is the only product (for this protection) I'm aware of with this quality.


Edited by Emmery (12/09/12 10:02 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#1996869 - 12/09/12 11:08 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unlike the surface patina that forms on copper, rust provides no protection to the ongoing process of rusting/corrosion.

I agree with you,Emmery .I believe that we should not be afraid of rust on site of strings. String has broken, when it goes from its own elastic deformation in ductile. Rusty strings sound betray charm from the past
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#1996881 - 12/09/12 11:31 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 413
Loc: Lincoln, NE
I also use CLP on the termination points. I'm glad to hear someone else does too Emmery. I'd like to hear more about the Eezox stuff. Where do you get it and how do you apply it?
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

Top
#1996924 - 12/09/12 12:55 PM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Eezox is a sporting goods/gun care product. It does contain a minute amount of trichlorethylene and one should be familiar with its safe use. I wouldn't use a lot of it in a small enclosed space and generally ventilate a bit if using it but its listed as quite safe in normal working conditions.

Typically I clean rusty strings using automotive chrome polish/rust remover on rags. This works better than steel wool and leaves no tiny bits of steel dust. Then I apply a tiny mist of Eezox with spray on a rag and wipe the string down with one pass in each direction to ensure its fully but extremely lightly coated. The use of this product requires a very light coating of it, when the carrier dries within an hour, the part should be dry to the touch...if not you are using too much.


Link to product>>>
http://www.eezox.com/gun-care.html
Safety Data>>>
http://www.eezox.info/msds.html
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#1996939 - 12/09/12 01:38 PM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2406
Loc: Portland, Oregon
There is a product called TSI-321 for use with plastic http://www.tsi301.com/tsi321moreinfo.htm and TSI-301 for use with metal. http://www.tsi301.com/main.htm

A retired music box technician/repairman first told me about these products some 30 years ago, and I have been using them ever since with great results. Given the properties of both these products, they may be helpful for the piano technician.


Edited by Grandpianoman (12/09/12 10:13 PM)

Top
#1997177 - 12/10/12 12:47 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
newinstru? Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/12
Posts: 113
Loc: SoCal
Thank you!

Top
#1997197 - 12/10/12 01:48 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: Emmery]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2059
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Typically I clean rusty strings using automotive chrome polish/rust remover on rags. This works better than steel wool and leaves no tiny bits of steel dust. Then I apply a tiny mist of Eezox with spray on a rag and wipe the string down with one pass in each direction to ensure its fully but extremely lightly coated.


That sounds like a good procedure. Do you have any tips for the backs of the strings?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#1997245 - 12/10/12 06:07 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Eezox is a sporting goods/gun care product. It does contain a minute amount of trichlorethylene and one should be familiar with its safe use. I will use uldn't use a lot of it in a small enclosed space and generally ventilate a bit if using it but its listed as quite safe in normal working conditions.

Typically I clean rusty strings using automotive chrome polish/rust remover on rags. This works better than steel wool and leaves no tiny bits of steel dust. Then I apply a tiny mist of Eezox with spray on a rag and wipe the string down with one pass in each direction to ensure its fully but extremely lightly coated. The use of this product requires a very light coating of it, when the carrier dries within an hour, the part should be dry to the touch...if not you are using too much.


I had similar product (high grade lubricant) tested, and nice to you if is stop rust, and but I am surprized, cleaning rusted strings is not possible only half of the string surface is cleaned and forget the section under bass strings.
I
Above some point it is better to leave rust, as the tone is worse when just a portion of the wire have been cleaned.. If for thé aspect indeed anything will do, I use 3M scotch Brite or an ink eraser.. Sure oils or WD 40 are attracting dust, and that damp the tone.

The marketing of your product is not very convincing, but if the product works....

Old wire and steel is often less sensible to corrosion than the steel of today. I it is easily seen on old tools.


Link to product>>>
http://www.eezox.com/gun-care.html
Safety Data>>>
http://www.eezox.info/msds.html


Edited by Kamin (12/10/12 10:04 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1997270 - 12/10/12 08:12 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Issac, I will only clean the rusted strings and treat them if the piano is in a place where it is afforded no other protection to the ongoing process of rusting. For example, I take care of a 1920's Steinway grand which sits in a house/cottage that is 100 feet from a large lake. Nobody occupies the home from fall to late spring and in the summer the piano sits 5 feet from a door that is generally left open. I see different kind of rust (appearancee) also. The Steinway's strings were kind of black with a touch of rust color. Another piano in which the owner was misting plants right above it had a brighter orang rust forming on the strings, rather splotchy as tiny droplets of the water only hit sporadically on the surface. If there is a change in tone, it is quite subtle. Like I said before, this is to stop the process of further rusting/deterioration and aesthetic in purpose.

I will feed a rag under the strings and yank the end up with a string hook. Looped around like this it can be pulled up and down to get the back side of the string. I haven't noticed anything bad happen to the tone yet and I will leave the overstrung lower portion of the tenor alone. I do not want to just clean part of the string as that may cause some problems with tone as you mention. I do treat the termination points of these strings so they are less likely to break or get caught up on tuning.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#1997312 - 12/10/12 10:04 AM Re: Rusty strings [Re: newinstru?]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Sure , those are some extremes situations, I have seen a grand Steinway mod A, 6 years old, instaled in the middle of an almost tropical plant at the 6thy floor of a building in Paris.

The pianos strings where in a very bad condition, alittle like if it was 30 years old.

No way to explain the owner that his investement was in peril...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Are there any upright owners who leave the front open?
by harpon
11/29/14 01:00 AM
They don't call him the 'Poet of the Piano' for nothing!
by JoelW
11/28/14 11:53 PM
Steinway rebuild question
by schlaigs
11/28/14 10:00 PM
Baldwin Hamilton Hammer Butt and Back Stop Leather
by Ryan Hassell
11/28/14 09:55 PM
Please help me to find out the pattern of this Cdim7
by SZ54
11/28/14 08:12 PM
Forum Stats
77083 Members
42 Forums
159435 Topics
2342082 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission