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#2045251 - 03/08/13 08:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Confusing. RST? Are these PMs that went astray?

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#2045278 - 03/08/13 10:08 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1179
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: keystring
Confusing. RST? Are these PMs that went astray?

Sorry to confuse. These previous posts may help explain ...
Originally Posted By: Greener
Chopin Nocturne in Eb Op. 9 No. 2

So when will we get to hear you perform this piece on the new CA95, Richard? Or, have you somewhere already and I missed it. If not, here would be a good place.
...


Originally Posted By: zrtf90

I promised in the RST thread to post photos of the new CA95 but thought it might be nice to accompany them with an idea of what it sounds like
...
I'll probably stick 'em in the RST thread in a week or two but I'll let you know on this one when I do.


RST = Rostoskys serious thread. Please do take a look & listen.

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#2045284 - 03/08/13 10:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Thanks, Greener.
and
link to same


Edited by keystring (03/08/13 10:23 PM)

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#2045722 - 03/09/13 11:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
I am continuing to read the thread with pleasure. I haven't had anything to add as far as analysis goes. I will say that I played through the Chopin Nocturne, very very slowly, for my mother, and she thought it was beautiful. I am becoming very fond of Chopin.

On memorization, I find it phenomenally difficult. I've been working on Clementi's Sonatina #4, first movement, for several months now, and just making very slow progress. I'm also working on memorizing three RCM level 1 pieces, 16 measures each, since December, and I have only in the last few weeks gotten two of them fully memorized (4 measures left to go on the third). So far the memorization on these three pieces hinders rather than helps my ability to interpret them well, because I'm so busy trying to remember the notes that I have very little mental space for expression. And it hinders my playing them at any speed, because I can't remember the notes that fast. I'm much better playing from the score.

I'm trying to learn how to memorize, plus I want to have some pieces I can play if I happen to come upon a piano with no music with me. So that's why I'm persevering. But it's really slow going. And just playing a piece a lot makes zero contribution to memorization for me. I have to make a very deliberate effort to memorize.

I don't read this thread for anything to do with learning how to play any particular piece. I just like thinking about how music works.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2045724 - 03/09/13 11:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Very interesting situation. For me, I have always memorized subconsciously while working on a piece. After learning the piece and polishing it, I find that I have it memorized.

To work on memorization, I'd suggest working on very small sections of a piece, say 4 bars, and after memorizing that little bit, play it again and again, from memory, on the metronome. Every few times you play the excerpt, move the metronome up one "tick". You will find that after x repetitions you develop something called muscle memory, where your fingers after playing a piece over and over instinctively remember where to go. This will enable you to play more fluently, accurately, and quickly from memory.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2046226 - 03/10/13 10:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
For the more advanced musicians on this thread, what do you think about a "Concerto Analysis" thread? It would be in the Pianist Corner board, and would be basically the same as this one except 1) we would analyze concertos rather than solo pieces and 2) we would go more in-depth with the analysis. I could initiate the thread and try to keep it on topic.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2046435 - 03/11/13 11:17 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1179
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
For the more advanced musicians on this thread
...

That counts me out straight away. Although I like to think I have done a reasonable job of keeping up here, and while learning a tremendous amount -- I didn't even know about minor scales when we stared, or key change modulations that weren't marked on the score as such laugh -- and we have ventured into some far deeper topics since.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

... what do you think about a "Concerto Analysis" thread? It would be in the Pianist Corner board, and would be basically the same as this one except 1) we would analyze concertos rather than solo pieces and 2) we would go more in-depth with the analysis. I could initiate the thread and try to keep it on topic.

I'm game to follow whatever is presented. One challenge I think we have had on this thread is being TOO advanced already for the interest of some Adult Beginner followers. And there is quite a bit more to cover in the natural flow of this Sonata Analysis that is already on the radar, I believe.

You are quite likely to find interest on the Pianist Corner board. For me personally though, I am challenged plenty here and do not reckon to be advancing beyond Adult Beginner ... ummm ... ever.
_________________________

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#2046444 - 03/11/13 11:34 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Polyphonist, I would happily follow a concerto analysis thread, and even try to contribute wink. Do you have any particular concerto or concertos in mind?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2046445 - 03/11/13 11:36 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
I'm going to start the thread right now; maybe you could make a post there in a few minutes?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2046634 - 03/11/13 07:05 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
I don't think memorising level 1 pieces is going to be that much of a benefit. I have difficulty learning easy pieces. There's little or no intellectual engagement. I'm better off when there's more going on and the techniques aren't easy enough to pull off in a couple of ten minute bursts.

Give me a difficult passage with awkward fingering and blind asymmetric leaps and I'll have it memorised before I can play the blessèd thing at half speed.

Analysis is a worthwhile activity in its own right but it is also a crucial first stage in the learning process for some of us. It's the stage where you find out where the musical landmarks are by investigation instead of by hearing them through possibly flawed techniques. Where does the piece climax? Where does it build tension and where release? How should this passage be phrased and what is its context in the piece?

We need to build physical techniques for playing, we need to develop reading skills because it's the only direct means of communication we have left with the masters who wrote many of the works we now play and we need to build memorisation techniques so that what we learn is not forgotten. This doesn't mean we have to memorise our pieces and play without the score but we do better knowing the music and how to express it beyond what's on the page. Any good reader looks ahead in the score not at the notes they're currently playing - in other words they read a measure, and play it from memory as they look ahead at the next measure. They recognise chord shapes, scale runs and arpeggios from memory of the patterns not from reading the individual notes rapidly.

Anyone who improves a piece of music by repetition is memorising the music, consciously or not. So whatever we do at the piano for practise should involve improving our technical equipment, our reading ability and our memorisation ability. It doesn't mean we have to memorise all our pieces - that's a discipline reserved for those that prefer to work that way and those that want to enjoy the benefits of mental play and practise away from the piano.

For those that audiate from the score rather than just recognise the notes reading imparts so much more and effectively allows playing by ear what's being audiated from the score. My own memory is sound based not staff based and I can only write out the score by working out the notes from memory not by seeing the score in my mind's eye or memorising the staff.

I don't hold with the notion that memorising is wrong (for this thread) or that mentioning features of the music that might help the memorisation is wrong (even if all we're memorising is the expression in the music). Just knowing (or feeling or hearing) that the music moves from tonic to dominant, for example, and thereby increases the tension allows our creativity to enhance that tension in our playing, our audiating or our listening whether we get louder or quieter or faster or slower or just make subtle alterations. This is musical expression. This isn't written into the score. It is memorised. Perhaps for some it is done afresh each time but I suspect they'd be in the minority. You remember how the music goes - not the notes, any old reader can do that - but the music, the interpretation, the passion, the personalisation.
____________________________

I use the metronome differently too. I use it to restrain myself and increase my control not to chase tempo. I prefer to increment it When I feel it's holding me back - I don't increment it and try to keep up with it. I have a speed at which I can practise a piece without error periodically through the year and only take it up to tempo for a week or two now and then. Speed comes from practise, repetition, assimilation and confidence not from trying to catch a faster hare though that might increase the motivation periodically or test the ability.

My own method is to practise only as much each day as I can hold in short term memory after a few plays. I have generally memorised the sound of the piece by listening and audiating daily before I venture to the piano. I preview a passage by playing it mentally, then actually play it, then review my performance. I repeat that between three and seven times. I use fewer repetitions as my confidence grows in the passage. When I can play the notes correctly from memory each day I move on to the next passage but keep the previous material, still in short phrases, until I can also play them with the correct phrasing, dynamics, pedalling and articulation every time too. For a while that's done daily but as I progresss through a piece early material gets repeated only every few days or weeks etc.

I may still need to get out the score for another week or two each time I go over a passage but this gradually reduces. When I can play all the passages without getting out the score I'll start putting them together in larger units if I haven't started doing so already.

An easy piece that's playable, slowly or otherwise, from the score may never get memorised unless I specifically want to add it to my repertoire. Bach preludes, Clementi sonatinas, Chopin mazurkas and Grieg lyric pieces are among such pieces for me. They consitute my reading matter at weekends. I could manage many of them most of the way through from memory, I'm sure, but I don't feel the need to try.
_________________________
Richard

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#2046637 - 03/11/13 07:09 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I don't think memorising level 1 pieces is going to be that much of a benefit. I have difficulty learning easy pieces. There's little or no intellectual engagement. I'm better off when there's more going on and the techniques aren't easy enough to pull off in a couple of ten minute bursts.

Give me a difficult passage with awkward fingering and blind asymmetric leaps and I'll have it memorised before I can play the blessèd thing at half speed.

Analysis is a worthwhile activity in its own right but it is also a crucial first stage in the learning process for some of us. It's the stage where you find out where the musical landmarks are by investigation instead of by hearing them through possibly flawed techniques. Where does the piece climax? Where does it build tension and where release? How should this passage be phrased and what is its context in the piece?

We need to build physical techniques for playing, we need to develop reading skills because it's the only direct means of communication we have left with the masters who wrote many of the works we now play and we need to build memorisation techniques so that what we learn is not forgotten. This doesn't mean we have to memorise our pieces and play without the score but we do better knowing the music and how to express it beyond what's on the page. Any good reader looks ahead in the score not at the notes they're currently playing - in other words they read a measure, and play it from memory as they look ahead at the next measure. They recognise chord shapes, scale runs and arpeggios from memory of the patterns not from reading the individual notes rapidly.

Anyone who improves a piece of music by repetition is memorising the music, consciously or not. So whatever we do at the piano for practise should involve improving our technical equipment, our reading ability and our memorisation ability. It doesn't mean we have to memorise all our pieces - that's a discipline reserved for those that prefer to work that way and those that want to enjoy the benefits of mental play and practise away from the piano.

For those that audiate from the score rather than just recognise the notes reading imparts so much more and effectively allows playing by ear what's being audiated from the score. My own memory is sound based not staff based and I can only write out the score by working out the notes from memory not by seeing the score in my mind's eye or memorising the staff.

I don't hold with the notion that memorising is wrong (for this thread) or that mentioning features of the music that might help the memorisation is wrong (even if all we're memorising is the expression in the music). Just knowing (or feeling or hearing) that the music moves from tonic to dominant, for example, and thereby increases the tension allows our creativity to enhance that tension in our playing, our audiating or our listening whether we get louder or quieter or faster or slower or just make subtle alterations. This is musical expression. This isn't written into the score. It is memorised. Perhaps for some it is done afresh each time but I suspect they'd be in the minority. You remember how the music goes - not the notes, any old reader can do that - but the music, the interpretation, the passion, the personalisation.
____________________________

I use the metronome differently too. I use it to restrain myself and increase my control not to chase tempo. I prefer to increment it When I feel it's holding me back - I don't increment it and try to keep up with it. I have a speed at which I can practise a piece without error periodically through the year and only take it up to tempo for a week or two now and then. Speed comes from practise, repetition, assimilation and confidence not from trying to catch a faster hare though that might increase the motivation periodically or test the ability.

My own method is to practise only as much each day as I can hold in short term memory after a few plays. I have generally memorised the sound of the piece by listening and audiating daily before I venture to the piano. I preview a passage by playing it mentally, then actually play it, then review my performance. I repeat that between three and seven times. I use fewer repetitions as my confidence grows in the passage. When I can play the notes correctly from memory each day I move on to the next passage but keep the previous material, still in short phrases, until I can also play them with the correct phrasing, dynamics, pedalling and articulation every time too. For a while that's done daily but as I progresss through a piece early material gets repeated only every few days or weeks etc.

I may still need to get out the score for another week or two each time I go over a passage but this gradually reduces. When I can play all the passages without getting out the score I'll start putting them together in larger units if I haven't started doing so already.

An easy piece that's playable, slowly or otherwise, from the score may never get memorised unless I specifically want to add it to my repertoire. Bach preludes, Clementi sonatinas, Chopin mazurkas and Grieg lyric pieces are among such pieces for me. They consitute my reading matter at weekends. I could manage many of them most of the way through from memory, I'm sure, but I don't feel the need to try.



May I ask what your "difficult" repertoire is, Richard? wink
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2046644 - 03/11/13 07:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
I can't play by ear. That is, although I can hear when I've played a wrong note, internally hearing the right note in advance doesn't guide me towards which key to play. So my memorization as far as playing from memory consists of memorizing patterns and logic (analysis) about the piece.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2046765 - 03/12/13 12:26 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
For the more advanced musicians on this thread, what do you think about a "Concerto Analysis" thread? It would be in the Pianist Corner board, and would be basically the same as this one except 1) we would analyze concertos rather than solo pieces and 2) we would go more in-depth with the analysis. I could initiate the thread and try to keep it on topic.


Over here, we are learning. While working on sonata form, we learned what sonata form was about. We learned what Exposition, Development, and Recapitulation meant. If there are new keys and modulation to the new key, we learned how to recognize that. Some of us knew something about this, but we were learning.

Members of the Pianist corner already know these things and they use them. So they can use their knowledge of what a concerto is, to analyze concertos. I don't think it is a place to start teaching about concertos. Actually I ran across that thread first, before finding this discussion here. It was confirmed that it's not a place for learning.

I'll observe over there, and if concertos are ever introduced over here, I might participate. Actually I have been observing. The last suggestion was that maybe people might say "Oh, this sounds like a mazurka." or "Oh, this reminds me of Mendelssohn's whatever." You have to have that kind of repertoire at your fingertips and in your memory. You have to know what a mazurka etc. sounds like. Without that kind of background, one would just be dragging them down and slowing down the discussion.


Edited by keystring (03/12/13 12:27 AM)

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#2046766 - 03/12/13 12:30 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
I wouldn't have a problem with you participating, keystring, as long as you would be okay with probably missing a little of what's going on. You are a very fast and eager learner. I wish I were your teacher. smile

You could just look at the score and ask about anything that interested you (in moderation grin ), or that you weren't sure about. I could answer all your questions, unless we happened to be moving very quickly on another subject. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2047628 - 03/13/13 12:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
May I ask what your "difficult" repertoire is, Richard? wink
I might answer that better if I understood the thrust of the question. I'm not sure what you mean, especially by the wink!

If you mean what do I think constitutes a difficulty then it's mechanical difficulties such as asymmetric leaps, rapid weak finger passages and awkward crossings like 4 over 5, rapid substitution on a key, large stretches, etc. These are some of the things that may require many repetitions and will be memorised before the physical techniques are mastered.

There are also more intellectual difficulties, with or without mechanical problems, such as unusual polyrhythms or a fugue where several voices need to be concentrated on and phrased simultaneously. Going by your moniker, those might hold less difficulty for you.

PS88 is on level three or four pieces, I believe, so those pieces will be more engaging for her than level 1 material. I dare say she'd memorise the first dozen bars of La Campanella before she'd actually mastered them.

If you're trying, as it looks, to catch me out somehow with my repertory choices, I'll march like a lamb to the slaughter and confess that the 32 and the 48 constitute difficult material for me. The hardest pieces I play would be the Moonlight, the Bb Op. 22 and Brahms' late piano works while those I tackle with less hope of ultimate success include the G minor Ballade and the Bénédiction de Dieu.
_________________________
Richard

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#2047639 - 03/13/13 12:29 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
I don't think Polyphonist was trying to catch you out, Richard. I think he was commenting that what you listed as easy sight-reading material for you would be quite challenging for many players.

Regarding level 3/4 vs. level 1, I'm quite engaged by simple pieces. But it's true that I'm largely sight-reading through level 1/2 pieces. I was dabbling through my book of Chopin Preludes Op. 27 (with Cortot's fascinating luminescent poetic and technical commentary) last night and fell in love with #15 in Db major, so I may add that to my set of what I'm working on memorizing. Not sure of its level, but certainly not level 1!

I'm thinking about working on it as a memorized piece because, despite my ineptness at memorizing, I do find that, for complicated music, memorization work does help me to learn to play it better, at least slowly. I think it's because of the concentrated work I have to do to remember the notes and how to move between them, which I don't do so much when I'm reading, even when I think I'm concentrating on the score and learning the passage. But my experience with, for example, my Mendelssohn Song Without Words is that, even after doing the memorization work, I can play it faster with the score than without.

But it has to be very concentrated work, with specific attention to memorization, for me to memorize. For me, just working on a passage multiple times from the score does not lead to memorization.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047645 - 03/13/13 12:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I don't think Polyphonist was trying to catch you out, Richard. I think he was commenting that what you listed as easy sight-reading material for you would be quite challenging for many players.
Ah! Then let me clarify the position.

<embarrassed head shake>

I sight-read precious little. Mostly the stuff we analyse here on this thread.

The pieces I mentioned are familiar reading matter. Not sight-reading. Not memorised. Not repertoire. But practised.
_________________________
Richard

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#2047650 - 03/13/13 12:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
I forgot, I did memorize Satie's Première Gymnopédie and Gnossienne #1 just by playing them. That was really extraordinary, and completely unlike any experience I've ever had before or since.

And I discovered that I could reconstruct most of the first phrase of the Beethoven Sonatina in F before I started specifically trying to memorize the whole thing. That was after months of working on the Sonatina daily from the score, and I have no idea how it happened. But that's really the exception.

Unfortunately, I haven't kept up any of those pieces, so all conscious memory traces of them have left me.

In fact, I neglected practicing my Mendelssohn Song Without Words for a month, and now I don't have it memorized any more (except for the arpeggios at the beginning and end). But I seem to have retained the improved ability to play it from the score that the memory work gave me. I find I haven't got the energy or desire to want to try to restore it to memory.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047652 - 03/13/13 12:48 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
For me, just working on a passage multiple times from the score does not lead to memorization.
Hmmm!

For me, just working on a passage multiple times from the score does not constitute practice but reading.

Practice starts when the score's away, the eyes are down and I can just work it, baby, work it! smile


_________________________
Richard

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#2047663 - 03/13/13 01:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Hmmm, hmmm!

So when you're practicing a piece, you pick a short section, you commit it to at least short-term memory enough that you can play/practice it through slowly and correctly several times? Then you put it away (or do you pick another section?) until the next day, and repeat with the same section, and keep doing this day after day until you can play it? And then by virtue of having started each session with that session by putting it in short-term memory, you eventually find that it's in longer term memory?

I know you've described your process before, but I am now not sure I have understood it, because I've always been rejecting the memorization part of it for me when I've read it before, but now I understand you to be saying that the short-term memorization is an essential part of working on the passage for you, for reasons having to do with practice as much as with memorization?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047678 - 03/13/13 01:38 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
So when you're practicing a piece, you pick a short section, you commit it to at least short-term memory enough that you can play/practice it through slowly and correctly several times?

add... "several times without looking at the score?"
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047796 - 03/13/13 06:07 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Yes, I think you're getting it. I only practise what I can hold in short term memory. I never practise with the score - that's reading.

I analyse the score (structurally), divide it into manageable sections, roughly a week's learning. Apportion those sections over a period of weeks and months (I work a piece one or two weeks on and several off) and divide each week's work into five days.

I've just picked a piece of music at random that was on the desk in front of me. Schubert's Musical Moment No. 3 (from the Classical Piano Collection that came with my Kawai), D. 780.

The first section is 10 Measures.

M1-2, memorise before going to the piano. Common chord, no third (but minor anyway). Learn today, probably remember for the rest of my life. (My liFe = Minor, F).

M3 & M5 are incredibly similar. M4 & M6 are a little different.

Monday. Probably read the first of the two pages (sight-reading) but remember I'll have this piece memorised, in terms of sound, before starting. I may do M1-10 HS to establish fingering and note distribution between hands but unlikely in this piece. Read M3-10 slowly and carefully looking at the articulation, accents, the rest in M8 etc. Memorise M3-6 RH then LH. Go through HT once or twice. Put the book away. Make a coffee. Play it mentally while kettle's boiling.

Sit at the piano and get M1-6 slow but perfect in my head, play it on the piano, review results. Repeat a few times. Make it sound like Brendel or Schiff (to that level, not imitatively). After ten minutes I move on to another piece.

Tuesday. Read page 1, audiating. Read M11-20 playing. Play M1-6 mentally from memory or from score (once) if forgotten. Once re-memorised then play a few times until it sounds like Brendel or Schiff. Work M7-10 as I did M1-6 yesterday. Spend a bit longer on M9 making sure the phrasing is spot on and the double notes are exactly together.

Wednesday. Play both pages, audiating. Read M11-20 on the keyboard. Play M1-6, mentally, then M7-10. Refer to score where I'm unsure. Play M1-6 a few times perfectly. Repeat for M7-10. If they're good that's it for the week. I'll play M1-10 on Friday just to make sure I've memorised it, once slowly and refer to the score and try again if not. Most weeks I'll need to work Thursday and Friday. This piece/section looks a bit easy. Not so M17, probably the hardest measure in the piece at first glance.

I'll play M1-10 once or twice every other weekend. The next week I work on this piece, usually in three or four weeks time I'll do M11-18. The parts will remain as individual pieces until I've finished the piece this way. Any section that proves difficult to play or difficult to remember I need to know before I put it all together and before I play if for an audience.

I can then put in extra work while it's still small and manageable and I can practise it mentally on the way to work, while I'm frying eggs, etc. I can work it before my usual practise, or after or instead of.

If I were less experienced I might take M1-6 as my first week's work and M9 and M17 as a week each. I would still be reading the whole page several times each week and the whole section that includes that week's work every day. But the bulk of my ten minutes would be an achievable objective for the day and for the week.

If there were not such an amount of duplication in the piece I might read the whole thing once through each Monday but not if I were likely to introduce errors by overfamiliarity without rigourous practise. Audiation and mental practise does not introduce errors, playing from the score does - for me.
_________________________
Richard

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#2047809 - 03/13/13 06:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Thank you Richard, for explaining this once again, and in such detail. I am going to study your description very carefully this time. I thought I understood it before, but I see now that the places where I have deviated have turned my method into a very different method from your method. I want to learn the Chopin Prelude in Db major Op. 28 No. 15 so I will use it as a learning case to try to follow your method very closely. Look for it in an ABF Recital, oh in about 2024.

It's sort of like learning to practice slowly. You (or at least I) think you have it, and then you (or rather, I) discover that there are whole rafts of vistas (to mix several metaphors) that one hasn't even begun to realize were there. I have a piece I've been practicing at what I thought was a slow tempo. Then I tried it recently at a MUCH MUCH slower tempo, counting eighth notes, and ... oh my! All the benefits of slow practice started to happen, which hadn't been happening before when I only thought I was going slow.

I may post here about the practice sections I identify for the Chopin. I want to try to think through for myself what makes sense before reading other suggestions for it.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (03/13/13 06:44 PM)
Edit Reason: correct opus number
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047811 - 03/13/13 06:42 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Yes, I think you're getting it. I only practise what I can hold in short term memory. I never practise with the score - that's reading.

Since this thread is for everyone, and a lot of people are learning, I'd like to clarify this. You are using the word "practise" and you are saying that if one uses the score, it is not "practising".

By "practising" do you mean "memorizing"? Up to a point I agree that to memorize music, one might not do it by playing from the score.

But if you actually mean "practising", then I disagree. To practise a piece of music means to learn to play the piece well and eventually musically, up to whatever abilities you have at the time. There is no reason whatsoever why that cannot be done with the score in front of you. I once shared a performance which I prepared for an event on Pianostreet. It is musical, and it was practised with the score, and was recorded with the score in front of me. All of this was "practising" - score and all.

So do you mean "memorizing"?

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#2047826 - 03/13/13 07:06 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
I was wondering about "what if one plans to play the piece while reading it in the end, not memorized?" And also I think that practice in reading is important; it seems to be a big handicap to only be able to decipher scores slowly, even if one still follows Richard's style of method or another method and ends up memorizing much of what one plays.

But I am trying to learn Richard's method right now, so I'm not asking these questions smile.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047837 - 03/13/13 07:26 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Clementi, Sonatina in F major, Op. 36 No. 4, 1st movement

Richard, about memorizing and audiation...

I have mentioned I'm learning this Sonatina and memorizing as I go. Consider m. 55 (top of page 4, second measure). Once you have learned the sound of this, and learned that it starts on C, can you hear that in the second group of sixteenth notes it goes up to Eb, and not up to E, or F, or D? (I guess I can sort of hear that it doesn't go up to D, because it went up to D in the first group, and if I concentrate very hard I can imagine that I can hear that it goes up to a different note in the second group -- although you could pretty easily convince me if you just played me this measure that it's only going up to C# instead; I'd have to concentrate a second time even harder to be sure it's going up higher than it did in the first group.)

And then can you hear that the note on the third beat, coming down from the final C in the second group of sixteenth notes, is Bb? And not some other note, like B or A or G?

See, I can't hear those things. I can hear and sing the measure, but that doesn't tell me very much about what the exact notes are. When I play it, I can tell if it sounds right or wrong after I've heard it, but I can't predict what the notes should be just from knowing the sound in my head in advance.

Occasionally, I'm trying to sing some of what I'm memorizing, or listen to the sound of it internally, and imagine the note names/locations which I have memorized, and try to teach myself that "this sound goes with these notes or intervals", to see if it will help me to have the sound help me to predict the notes over time. I don't know if this will work or not.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2047845 - 03/13/13 07:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11645
Loc: Canada
My main concern is with what is meant by "practising". One can practise with the score.

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#2047856 - 03/13/13 08:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
May I ask what your "difficult" repertoire is, Richard? wink
I might answer that better if I understood the thrust of the question. I'm not sure what you mean, especially by the wink!



The wink on this site is not really a wink, it looks kind of confused and more like the ":P" on other sites, so I use it differently. Maybe thats confusing people and I should stop wink

There, I just did it again.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2048082 - 03/14/13 08:22 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2323
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: keystring
Since this thread is for everyone, and a lot of people are learning, I'd like to clarify this. You are using the word "practise" and you are saying that if one uses the score, it is not "practising".
Golly gosh, no, that's not what I'm saying at all!

What I said was:
Quote:
I only practise what I can hold in short term memory. I never practise with the score - that's reading.

The final throwaway remark states that practising with a score is reading. It was not designed to suggest that reading is not practising. I expect most people practise with the score. It was designed to suggest that when I practise I must not read.

I'm not talking about making music, I'm talking about building a repertoire.

Practising with the score is rehearsing to play with the score (for me). It's going through the processes that will result in playing with the score, looking at the score. For me looking at the score prevents me from rehearsing how I'm going to play. I'm too busy reading, translating, checking, following - input focussed.

When I play I'm looking into space. Light is coming in but it's not registering. I'm not seeing. I might look at the keys now and then but my eyes aren't focussed anywhere. I'm too busy listening, audiating, expressing, directing - output focussed.

For me they are two very different things to practise. For a piece I'm going to add to my repertoire, internalise and recite, I'm going to be doing it without the score. It must be part of me and I must believe it and be passionate about it. If I'm to practise it then I must know it and practise it without the score.

I don't work at getting the notes right and add the musicality later. I get the phrasing, dynamics and touch right, too, before I move on. I'm not interested in saying the words, I'm interested in telling the story and making the meaning clear (unlike my posts here). I leave the phrase when it sounds like it's going to sound in performance. Even if I say it a little slower to start with.

Listen again to my Grieg Notturno, Chopin Nocturne or Liszt Consolation. There are no patches where every note is piano or forte. I didn't get lucky on the day with the dynamics. Each note of each phrase is worked out and worked on. It's like this from day 1, albeit slower. I don't write dynamics into the score to show how a phrase is rising, falling and inflecting. I memorise it and practise it that way from the start.
______________

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
...can you hear that in the second group of sixteenth notes it goes up to Eb...And then can you hear that the note on the third beat, coming down from the final C in the second group of sixteenth notes, is Bb?
Yes, I can.

Since I was a nipper I've worked out notes of songs I heard on the radio for either the piano or the guitar (or trumpet or recorder). And having written a song I had to write it down and 'orchestrate' it to play it on various instruments for recording. So I guess my ears and eyes got finely tuned out of necessity or frequency or both.

I learnt to sight-sing, and sight-audiate, so that I didn't have to pick up or go to an instrument. I could write stuff out at my desk at work and make corrections when I got home. As I did it more often I needed less corrections. I do still struggle when the accidentals pile up and sometimes resort to how I think it ought to go but typically I do well enough.
______________

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The wink on this site is not really a wink...
I read it as a wink even it looks more like a 'clink'. But I see I totally misunderstood the purpose of your question. Isn't this a wonderful medium for communication and social interaction? wink
_________________________
Richard

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#2048103 - 03/14/13 09:20 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Listen again to my Grieg Notturno, Chopin Nocturne or Liszt Consolation. There are no patches where every note is piano or forte. I didn't get lucky on the day with the dynamics. Each note of each phrase is worked out and worked on. It's like this from day 1, albeit slower. I don't write dynamics into the score to show how a phrase is rising, falling and inflecting. I memorise it and practise it that way from the start.

That is a high and inspiring standard. It's one of the things I notice listening to professional pianists: no passage is ever static in dynamics.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
...can you hear that in the second group of sixteenth notes it goes up to Eb...And then can you hear that the note on the third beat, coming down from the final C in the second group of sixteenth notes, is Bb?
Yes, I can.

I think this gives you a big advantage in memorizing over me. It means that your audiating is helpful to you in knowing what notes to play. Audiating is not that helpful for me. I'm memorising a piece that starts with a rising minor ninth, but I just have to have that memorized: A to Bb. As far as I'm concerned as far as knowing what that interval is just by hearing it, it could be any other large interval, including a pure octave.

...Trying not to be discouraged...

I'm starting so much from practically zero as far as many skills of memorizing and audiating go, so although the bad news is that I think it will take years for me to make progress, the good news is I guess that the only place for me to go is up.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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