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#1969821 - 10/07/12 12:37 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Sorry to have jumped ahead PS88, I was listening, referencing stuff in a different session, then posting, and see you already have two expansive posts during this time re: No. 4 Sonatina. 

I will look over your posts now and report my confusion forthcoming ... smile


I don't think you're jumping ahead.  I'm the one who's jumping way back.  I have some thoughts on the Sonatina #5 Air Suisse, but let me know if you want me to hold them until after you work through my new Sonatina #4 material.

I'm catching up on the thread today, so may have comments on the rest of #4 and the first movement of #5.  Do you want those all at once, or would you like me to pace them out over a few days, interspersed with the material as we move forwards in #5?
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#1969826 - 10/07/12 12:50 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

I'm catching up on the thread today, so may have comments on the rest of #4 and the first movement of #5.  Do you want those all at once, or would you like me to pace them out over a few days, interspersed with the material as we move forwards in #5?


You are miles ahead of me with this stuff PS88. To be honest, I am having big enough challenge digesting information as it is presented and thinking through current sonatina analysis.

Fire away with your queries for confirmation -- on any Sonatina and at any time, -- but, not sure if I can offer much help. Will try if I can, but otherwise, I am more likely to continue just learning more by your questions/challenges/observations. You will most likely need to await the experts for the answers and confirmation you are seeking.


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#1969827 - 10/07/12 12:50 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Yikes! #4 movement 2 is in a major key, but sounds minor to me. What is that all about????!!!???

Ha, it turns out my comment on Fauré's Cantique de Jean Racine, about major pieces sounding minor to me, *is* relevant to the Clementi sonatina analysis smile.
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#1969828 - 10/07/12 12:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Thanks, Greener, that makes sense. I'm going to try to stay caught up with the thread as we move forward, precisely because it makes my comments more useful if they come in the context at the same time everyone else is considering those movements.
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#1969844 - 10/07/12 01:38 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I'm not sure what you mean by reading. Do you mean audiating: knowing what it will sound like just from reading the score, without playing it?
Yes, in this instance I'm referring to audiation. When you can audiate well there's not much need to go to the piano until it starts getting chromatic or modulating freely.

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
In mm.52-55, I find the key by looking at the chords.
Yes, we've just covered the aspect of context when establishing key so we should expect more precision from our viridescent pioneer from now on! laugh

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
In m.55, I look ahead to m.56 and decide that we're not really in G minor at all. The D Gm C F progression is basically a 6-2-5-1 progression, with the Dm7 that would appear in F major jazzed up into D7 to make the Gm more inevitable.
The D7 does suggest we've left Bb and the G minor is very fleeting so it could be read as a broader ii-V-I. Until we have a final cadence or deliver a phrase in a key we can't really say for sure where we are.

M56-57 are, for me, a variant of M15-16 rather than new material. Heigh-ho!

_________________________________

The Andante con espressione sounds sad and plaintive. Try flattening the D and A and see the difference a minor tonality makes.

The upper melody finishes on F rather than Bb and that helps to give it an unfinished feel.

________________________________

I've seen your analysis, Jeff, but it's on hold at the moment! I'm waiting to see where our Student is going with number 4!
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#1969846 - 10/07/12 01:45 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
This instantly shows me these corresponding measures:

mm.13-15, mm.52-54
and
mm.17-18, mm.58-59

The harmonic parallels in #4 are good but looking at the material rather than the harmony I see M15-16 spread over M54-57 rather than M16 over 55-57.
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#1969849 - 10/07/12 01:59 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
M56-57 are, for me, a variant of M15-16 rather than new material. Heigh-ho!

(Why does my spellchecker always want to change zrtf into Zerg? With a capital letter no less. Who or what is a Zerg?)

Well, sure, all the deedly bits going up and down are related to each other. But the rest of mm.52-59 pretty replicates mm.13-18 pretty exactly (allowing for the different keys) except for mm.54-57 which depart from m.16 much more dramatically. In particular, the precise melodic contour of mm.56-57, with the jump up to G and back down, and the two sixteenth rests, isn't met anywhere else. Nor is the half note/quarter note combination met anywhere else in the accompaniment. Also the inversions of the chords are changed from the model. This all seems like purposeful and significant variation from m.16.

Compare the variation in mm.28-30 to mm.69-70, which is much more straightforward (basically an inversion) and keeps the same chords and inversions (relative to the current key). (I would put all of mm.58-71 in the category of creative but nonessential variation, but the last three measures are most convenient to pull out for a quick comparison.)

By contrast, something essentially different is happening harmonically in mm.55-56 than in m.16.
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#1969851 - 10/07/12 02:13 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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That was cross-posted.

I see your point about melodic spread. Maybe the synthesis of both of our points is that Clementi has to do something different harmonically -- transition back to the tonic -- and he does that in a way that shows unity with the model by doubling m.15 into mm.55-55, and doubling m.16 into mm.56-57.

I see mm.56-57 as being a LOT more different from their model, than mm.54-55 are from their model, melodically. In fact you could argue (or maybe not *you*, but *I* could argue smile ) that mm.56-57 are essentially more like m.15 than m.16, or at least share features with both m.16 and m.17. The essential notes of m.15 are same-same-down (F F Eb). This same pattern is found in all four of mm.54-57: Eb Eb D, C C Bb, Bb Bb A, Bb Bb A. Mm.56-57 then each add on the upward arpeggio from the end of m.16, but abbreviated by dropping a note and starting from a lower point, with the result that the arpeggio no longer reaches the highest note in the measure, and certainly not an octave up as in m.16.
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#1969890 - 10/07/12 03:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Sonatina #4, movement 2, andante con expressione.

There was some question about m.22 in the B part, with C#dim7 Dm, and a question about what the C# was doing in the middle of a passage predominantly in F major (mm.21-26). I said something about it at the time, but wasn't looking at the score or the context.

Now that I'm looking and listening, I would say that mm. 21-22 are doing exactly the same thing in F major, with a one measure feint to the sixth Dm, as mm.13-14 were doing in Bb major, with a one measure feint to the sixth Gm.
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#1969893 - 10/07/12 03:27 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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From the Sonatina #4 movement 3 "Rondo" discussion:
Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I don't foresee a struggle finding out where the material comes from for the development section. Tying the piece up to the other two movements is a bit more of a challenge but needn't detain us if it's not obvious.
 

I'm good with the needn't detain us part. Turns out this is my least favorite aspect -- likely an indication of needing more attention -- of these analysis.  

Tying the movements together is also the most challenging part for me.  I don't think I have ever been able to see the connections that Richard makes.

Maybe I will come to Sonatina 6 in an appropriate spiritual state achieved by prayer and fasting, and will be granted a vision of thematic material across movements.
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#1969906 - 10/07/12 03:56 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

Maybe I will come to Sonatina 6 in an appropriate spiritual state achieved by prayer and fasting, and will be granted a vision of thematic material across movements.


Yes, I am sure this will work for you, PS88. In testimony, the prayer and fasting is proving to have a very positive effect for me. smile

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#1969913 - 10/07/12 04:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Air Suisse
In it's most basic form I would call this A B A

In this case though, we would need to include M41-M48 in the B section.

I hear this section as different from A and B. So, would either call this a middle section, a C section, or development.

A B - Development - A

C would be fine, Jeff. It's not a development because he's not taken material from A or B and developed it. It's essentially new material. I'd have tacked it on to then end of B myself.

But then I've been likened to a Zerg! smile
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#1969926 - 10/07/12 04:47 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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I will still refer to you as, Richard if OK.

Is there much more to discuss on this movement? I thought you may have been fascinated with my conclusion of the F# in M47 pulling us to G Major in M48. No eh?

Content is clearly coming from movement 1 exposition with the repeated phrase (first occurrence in M3 of Air Suisse) coming from M4 of exposition.

As we are in a different time signature, of course nothing lines up precisely, but there are clear similarities.
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#1969931 - 10/07/12 05:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
I thought you may have been fascinated with my conclusion of the F# in M47 pulling us to G Major in M48. No eh?

Content is clearly coming from movement 1 exposition with the repeated phrase (first occurrence in M3 of Air Suisse) coming from M4 of exposition.
Your spot of the F# in M47 left me speechless. So much so that I said nothing!

Yes, I like the parallels with the first movement. Do you see M26-30 echoing M4 and M6? How do you feel about M41-48 being influenced by the left hand in M24-32 in the first movement?
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#1969934 - 10/07/12 05:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I have something to say on Air Suisse, but I'm heading to work right now and it may have to wait until later.

On Sonatina #4 movement 3, Rondo, I thought 4 against 3 was a looooong way in my future, but here it is in the form of a RH turn against LH triplets, five times in mm.21, 22, and 24.

1 L R
2
3
4 R
5 L
6
7 R
8
9 L
10 R
11
12

Ah, I see. If I think of each triplet of the 3 in sixteenths, and play a dotted eighth rhythm against it with the 4, except a straight eighth in the middle, it will work out right laugh .

Actually, I say that tongue in cheek, but it actually seems to be working out pretty well, to give me a first draft slow approximation, and tapping.

Playing it with notes, up to speed, at the piano, is going to be s whole different story.
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#1969947 - 10/07/12 05:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I wouldn't even think of it as four against three. I got used to that stuff playing Haydn. The turns are just a quickly played figure.

Four against three, played slowly enough to need the right rhythm, I play against the phrase 'pass the golden butter'. For Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu it just comes. It's too fast to think about a phrase - you just feel it.
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#1969967 - 10/07/12 06:40 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Yes, I like the parallels with the first movement. Do you see M26-30 echoing M4 and M6? How do you feel about M41-48 being influenced by the left hand in M24-32 in the first movement?

I don't see those parallels at all. Can you give some more details?

Separate from that, here is what I wanted to say about the Air Suisse:

The beginning, mm.1-24, is not four identical 6-bar phrases. It's a six bar phrase with simple harmony ending open on G, followed by a very similar, but slightly different, phrase, with slightly more complex harmony, ending closed on C. Those 12 measures are then repeated.

First six bars: C C C C C G
Second six bars: C C C, Dm7/C Bdim, Dm7/C Bdim, C

In roman numerals,
First six bars: I I I I I V
Second six bars: I I I, IIm7/7 VIIdim, IIm7/7 VIIdim, I

OK, the second six bars is not terribly complex -- it's just a variation on ii-V-I -- but honestly, almost anything will be more complex than I (a long time passes) V.

When this material returns at m.49, the first 12 measures return exactly as before. The second 12 measures changes though. Yes, it's jazzed up with grace notes and put up an octave and tricked out with a fancy sixteenth note accompaniment. But along with all those creative cosmetic variations, there's a real difference: the harmony changes. Now we get I V7 in almost every measure. The IIm is abandoned. This all leads up to the coda from mm.72-82 which is just I over and over.

I've started to detect that pretty much everything is V and I over and over, with occasional IIm and VIIdim. Anything else is a rare event. Not just here, but in all the sonatinas. I'm planning to tabulate the chords and the key changes to quantify this. (Just in case you didn't think I was enough of a lunatic laugh .)
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#1969969 - 10/07/12 06:40 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Your spot of the F# in M47 left me speechless. So much so that I said nothing!


Thought it may have been something like that. From now on I will assume your silence means, I'm golden.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Do you see M26-30 echoing M4 and M6?


Yes, I do now.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

How do you feel about M41-48 being influenced by the left hand in M24-32 in the first movement?


I would say it is a safe bet. Yes, striking resemblance.

Thanks for pointing out though. I never would have seen these, by looking at the score and would have needed to go over many times before they came by listening as well. Only when comparing these specific sections to each other does it become evident.

But, perhaps more so with practice.


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#1969979 - 10/07/12 07:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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The grace notes in Air Suisse, are they played on the beat or before the beat? Does it make a difference if there is a slash through it or not, e.g. m. 10 vs. m.12?

And do these have an official name, other than grace note? Again, is it different for with slash vs. without?
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#1969996 - 10/07/12 07:49 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I wouldn't even think of it as four against three. I got used to that stuff playing Haydn. The turns are just a quickly played figure.

Except I can't seem to reel the turn off properly and evenly in the same amount of time as the triplets. A trill or an appogiatura or a mordent would not be a problem (I don't think), but the turn just defeats me.

Quote:
Four against three, played slowly enough to need the right rhythm, I play against the phrase 'pass the golden butter'. For Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu it just comes. It's too fast to think about a phrase - you just feel it.

The problem with that, for me, is that I would need someone to recite the phrase for me with the correct rhythm. Now that I've worked out the rhythm, I know the precise rhythm for "pass the golden butter", but without knowing the rhythm, I might have said "golden" in the wrong rhythm. OK, for something as fast as the turn it may not be audible, but in slower examples I want to be sure I have a precise idea in mind.

Maybe it's just me that finds it quite satisfying to have the precise numbers worked out. Actually, I read about this in a book, so I know there's at least one other person who likes this method -- the book's author.
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#1970008 - 10/07/12 08:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Backtracking a wee bit from the Air Suisse, I'm going to post on Sonatina 5, first movement.

Originally Posted By: Greener
Op 36. No. 5

M1-M34 Exposition; M1-15 G Major; M16 - M34 D Major

I see D major beginning in m.13. The next phrase starts in m.16, but we are already in D major by then.

Comparing to the Recapitulation, I see mm.13-15 as a bridge, which is the term I'm using for the material that gets more changed in the recapitulation than the rest of the exposition. The material before it is in the tonic and the material after it is in the dominant (tonic, in the recapitulation). The bridge itself can have the switch from tonic to dominant any where in it.

It's not necessarily a transition: for example here, BANG, at m.13 you're in D major, no real transition or feeling of extended modulation. But it's identifiable to me, once I get to the recapitulation and can compare back to the exposition.

I call it the bridge in both the exposition and the recapitulation. Does this have an official name?


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/07/12 08:33 PM)
Edit Reason: add question
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#1970183 - 10/08/12 06:37 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Sonatina #4 movement 3, Rondo
Whenever there is a difficulty with an ornament it is always a good idea to practise first without the ornament. This will give the intrinsic rhythm of the section.

In this instance you might try adding an upper mordent on the C, giving cdE - cdC just in RH. When you're happy with that, very slowly lift your hand letting the fourth finger linger on the E but finish a couple of inches above the keyboard. As your hand comes back down to play the cdC allow your third and fourth fingers to strike the D and E in passing, by dint of being closer to the keys than your index finger as you lower your hand rather than by a deliberate finger action.

When you're comfortable with the sound of the five notes play them deliberately rolling the fingers as you would by drumming them on the desk. When you can play the RH well enough add the left hand back.

Graces
When there's a single grace note with the tail crossed through it's an acciacatura and is played (on the beat) with (theoretically) no time. When there's no line through the tail, as in the Haydn sonata we looked at earlier, it's an appogiatura and shares the time with the following note, a grace and a crotchet being played as two quavers.

When there's more than one note as at the start of the Air Suisse, these are acciacature and their tails are not struck through. They're played on the beat but the principal note retains the accent.

Parallels in Movements 1 and 2
The A section of the Air Suisse making use of the figure MM3, 4 and 5 is reminiscent of the figure that begins each phrase in the first subject of the Presto.

The three note figure used in MM26-30 in the B section of the Air Suisse is reminiscent of the three note figure in MM5 and 7 of the Presto.

Measures 41-48 of the A.S. emphasising the double strike (especially if the LH rests and RH semis are ignored) recalls the double strike pattern used in LH in MM21-22 and similar through the second subject in the Presto.

The Air Suisse
MM3-5 & 9 are C but M10-11 are Dm7? The harmony in the first and third lines is simply tonic leading to an imperfect cadence on V. Lines two and four subtly introduce a rootless G7 to close the phrase with a final cadence on tonic. In the final iteration the closure is announced more definitively and a coda appended.

This is supposed to be simple; it's a ranz des vaches, a simple Alpine horn melody.

Listen to this one, the first four lines begin at 6:10, 6:24, 6:37 and 6:50. The second two at 7:05 and 7:25. Note the similarity (coincidental) of the three note figure here. Note also the changed harmony in the return of A and the impending finality of the tonic dominant alteration. (The music's quite boring after 8:45, you can stop the video there.)




The Presto
Yes, the first subject closes on the first beat of M16 and the second subject begins there. D major was heralded with the introduction of C# in M12 but it isn't established until the first beat of M16.

For a bridge passage I expect new material, a new phrase. When the final phrase of the first subject changes to the dominant, as here, there's no need for a bridge passage but the end of the phrase will be different in the recap. The end of the phrase may well be called a bridge passage but I have never understood that to be the case. Bridge or bridge passage is the technical term though I reserve bridge for the AABA song structure.
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#1970222 - 10/08/12 09:02 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
For a bridge passage I expect new material, a new phrase.

OK, I'll think of a new name. Maybe I'll just call it "Altered" in my personal notes.

Thanks for the notes about the turn, and grace notes. Acciaccatura. Appoggiatura. Acciaccatura. Appoggiatura. (Trying to drill it into my brain.) Both of these have more consonants than I would expect (trying to learn to spell them as well as play them). I think I may finally have a chance of remembering these, because recently I've been doing a lot of labelling of non-chord tones as appoggiaturas, so that gives me a hook to remember that that's the long grace note. If I knew more Italian, I would remember that (I think) acciaccatura means "crushed", and appoggiatura means (I think) "leaning", but apart from tempo markings mostly the only Italian I know is "la chiave, prego" ("The key, please" when asking for the key to the bathroom when in a bar).
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#1970225 - 10/08/12 09:04 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The Presto
Yes, the first subject closes on the first beat of M16 and the second subject begins there. D major was heralded with the introduction of C# in M12 but it isn't established until the first beat of M16.

Are you saying I shouldn't say it's in D major until m.16?

Thinking about key... can't you be in a new key before it gets established with a cadence? Was it Beethoven's Symphony #3 (or was it #7) which starts with 4 minutes of No Tonic Chord that you told me about, and finally there's a resolution? Surely during those 4 minutes the listener (at least the listener more astute than me) has a sense of the tonic that they're yearning for and keep getting denied? I know that's an example of starting out in a key, rather than a new key, but I would think the same principle applies.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/08/12 10:13 AM)
Edit Reason: word choice
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#1970246 - 10/08/12 10:18 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Whenever there is a difficulty with an ornament it is always a good idea to practise first without the ornament. This will give the intrinsic rhythm of the section.

In this instance you might try adding an upper mordent on the C, giving cdE - cdC just in RH. When you're happy with that, very slowly lift your hand letting the fourth finger linger on the E but finish a couple of inches above the keyboard. As your hand comes back down to play the cdC allow your third and fourth fingers to strike the D and E in passing, by dint of being closer to the keys than your index finger as you lower your hand rather than by a deliberate finger action.

When you're comfortable with the sound of the five notes play them deliberately rolling the fingers as you would by drumming them on the desk. When you can play the RH well enough add the left hand back.

I'm confused by the notes you name: "cdE - cdC" what is that? Also if I'm playing an upper mordent on a C, wouldn't that be C D C? so my fourth finger is lingering on D, not E? (I'm assuming that you mean also that my third -- middle -- finger is playing the center note of the turn, C.) A turn on C I would play as D C B C (barring any accidentals). So actually now I'm not even sure of the applicability of the upper mordent C D C.

I feel like I've somehow totally missed the exact steps of what you're trying to say, even as the general idea -- start simpler, then work up complexity in steps -- is clear.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/08/12 10:20 AM)
Edit Reason: a bit more
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#1970284 - 10/08/12 11:47 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Are you saying I shouldn't say it's in D major until m.16?

I wouldn't be so bold!

I'm saying that it's heralded from M12 and it's established in M16. Whether we're in it between those two points is a matter of interpretation.

In M12 the C# is just an appogiatura, (the other kind, not the grace note). M13 is a very disguised A7 so the D major in M14 doesn't have a tonic ring to it. In M15 the Em begins the ii-V-I but can also be ambiguous as the relative minor in G. It's only when the A7 is heard at the end of M15 that we really expect D major.

Symphony #7 begins with 4 minutes of dominant seventh. There is a sense of impending tonic but V7 is not tonic. It belongs to a key but until we get the tonic are we really in it? I know I'm 'in it' when my wife gives me THAT look but that's another matter!

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I'm confused by the notes you name: --start simpler, then work up complexity in steps -- is clear.
Sorry about that, I was looking at a completely different section!

Yes, start simply and work up is the idea.
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#1970342 - 10/08/12 02:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
The turn in the sonatina no 4.
I've been back to the original post now. Those turns are done on fingers 3,2,1 as opposed to 4,3,2 but the principle is the same. Lift the hand after the first F (M22) and position the fingers so that the third finger is lower than the index finger (not difficult) and drop the hand to strike the E with the thumb and the 3 and 2 fingers should have played the G and F on the way, then play the F again before the A.

Again play the measures without ornaments first, then get the ornaments right in RH alone.
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#1970346 - 10/08/12 02:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4812
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

On Sonatina #4 movement 3, Rondo, I thought 4 against 3 was a looooong way in my future, but here it is in the form of a RH turn against LH triplets, five times in mm.21, 22, and 24.


I have them in M22, 23 and 25. Different measure numbers?

You have every right to feel frustrated because the skill demanded here, which is 4 against 3 as you have mentioned, is simply several levels of difficulty beyond the rest of the piece.

I think Richard meantioned Chopin's Fantasy Impromptu, and when you play music like that, your hands asborb the skill of 4 against 3. Why did Clementi throw in that skill in music that was otherwise fairly simple?

My answer: composer stupidiy. If he had taught his own music, day in and day out, he would have eventually rewritten that passage, IMHO. laugh


Edited by Gary D. (10/08/12 02:42 PM)
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#1970350 - 10/08/12 02:50 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I have them in M22, 23 and 25. Different measure numbers?

I number the first full measure as 1, and the pickup measure doesn't have a number. I think this is how I've normally seen people numbering on this thread. Should I be numbering from the pickup measure as 1? And should we agree how we'll do it on this thread (or maybe everyone else is doing it that way already and I haven't noticed)?
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#1970354 - 10/08/12 03:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
You have the right numbers but we've been using Greener's numbered score for this movement. He's numbered the pickup as 1.

As long as you know where you are, huh? smile
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Richard

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