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And since I'm in an experimenting mode, here's an example of letting the right hand define the beat, allowing the left hand to be freer:

https://www.box.com/s/3pmflzpn5sdqmw2g04tb

Do you think that works?

Well, as a bassist, I must protest. I really really don't like having a pianist bother my low end of the scale. It's annoying and can ruin my intonation; if the pianist has lousy timing it can throw me off (and especially if the piano is a bit out of tune). As a rule anything below C3 (C4 being middle C) is verboten.
On the other hand, a bass-line groove doubled in the piano LH with the bass can really work wonders.

I'd just add on the rootless discussion that this really refers only to the bottom note. To my ear, roots that are anywhere else in the chord do not create a conflict with the bass player.
One of my standard left hand voicings for major 7 chords, in facts is (bottom up) 7,1 3 5.

Jazzwee: You are right that two-handed comping is one of our most important tools. There, too, roots higher up are fine, to me. I was recently shown what has become my favorite comping voicing for sus chords. For F sus, for example, play a rootless C minor voicing in the left hand, and F octaves in the right hand.

And to further clarify: I'm not sure if everyone is talking about the same thing here. One can include the root in any and all chords, but not usually in root position. Inversions of 7, 9, sus, etc, can all have the root of the chord in there.

Yes, let's all be clear. Playing roots down low is NOT a good thing. I wouldn't go below the octave before middle C if using Bud Powell Root-7 voicings and I would worry about the VOLUME(keep it low).

Chris is also right. Timing issues could be an issue if both play the root. But I watched my teacher (AP) solo in the low registers as a contrast. THAT sounded great. Something about the growl of the piano that contrasts against the smooth bass sound of an upright.

Because I play on a digital, I have to be careful to EQ out the bass so that if I happen to go below, it doesn't sound so strong. It's also important to listen to the volume of the Bass note. Now apparently my work in this regard has garnered the appreciation of the bass player. He was whining about pianists playing low like solo piano and wanted to shout "Stay away from my turf". But he said kind words about me because I'm conscious of it.

The point though from a skill point of view is that we need to be able to play chords anywhere and not be tied to a memorized rootless voicing or register. My teacher made a point to break that habit and made me conscious of my note choices. Regular memorized (9)(13) rootless chords may be in conflict with the melody or the alterations so one needs to be aware of every single note. Usually only the 3rd and 7th are safe.

I personally found that being able to comfortably stretch chords in two-hands has really enhanced my comping.

OK, that's good to know.

But there are two things here: 1. the piano playing the root as the lowest note, and 2. the piano playing the root as the lowest note, and down in your range.

It sounds like you don't mind the piano playing a rooted voicing, as long as that root isn't below C3.

I wouldn't call it a rooted voicing, but I see what you mean.

For me it has to do a lot with keeping the frequencies and the overtones clear of clutter.
and don't forget that Harmony/voicings is also counterpoint.

If you want to understand the where, how, and why of root and seventh voicings listen to Bud Powell AND also how the bassist plays when Powell uses them. Same with rootless voicings and Bill Evans. Much of how to use these kinds of things and why they evolved as they did has to do with historical practice. In general, pianists' voicing moved into the middle register so the bass could work in the lower ranges. That's just a basic principle of orchestration: spread the chord out across several registers and use a few or more instruments to do that. But that's GENERAL PRACTICE. It's not a hard and fast rule. And as rules go, just about any player who really has ability on their instrument can and does then play what they hear. So that rule of "let your ears be the guide" is a good rule! But if your ear can't distinguish when or when not to use them them you can't really rely on that rule!

Some pianists voice the root and seventh such that the root is almost inaudible. Doing that brings out the seventh as a line underneath whatever else is going on.

Horace Silver and early Red Garland are good references. And also, Richie Powell, Bud's brother, is a good reference. And Thelonious Monk. Some pianists, Jaki Byard, for example, used roots sevenths, and tenths in their left hand. But, again, when that happens the chord is voiced so the root is not as loud as the other notes. In a more contemporary context, when Herbie Hancock played with Miles Davis he often used roots in the left hand that were an octave or more below middle C. You can hear this all over the place in MD recordings in the early 60s where they're playing standards (Autumn Leaves, etc.). Another really interesting place to hear chord voicings with low roots in in some of Paul Bley's recordings where he plays standards with a trio (bass and drums).

When working with a bass player, IF you sense he or she is uncomfortable with rooted voicings - or if the player requests that you not use them, well, then simply don't use them. It may be that the tuning of the piano (or lack of tuning) makes it difficult for the bassist to double a note against a piano voicing. It may be sometimes that the bassist has intonation troubles for that reason alone, they'd prefer not to hear roots from a pianist (because they'll show the problem they're having with intonation). Digital pianos in general resonate differently than do acoustic pianos. So rooted voicings with DPs can sometimes cause balance and intonation problems. But sometimes not. If just depends on how sensitive (or insensitive) everyone is to overall musical context.

On the other hand, there may be times when the bassist does't really know the changes to some tune or another and in that case, they may appreciate root/seventh or root/seventh/tenth voicings just as a way to help them get through the tune.

Maybe most important of all - as a reference so that you can know when and how to use rooted and rootless voicings LISTEN to how a variety of pianists (in classic recordings) used rooted and rootless voicings. Listen to how those rooted (or rootless) voicings are supported by the bassist and how they might also influence the way the drummer plays. Bottom line:if you have theoretical and AURAL knowledge of historical style , then you have a measure to know where rooted and rootless voicings can be used. Same with roots an octave or more below middle C.

Hope this all helps ...

Very nice printer1! And Welcome to the discussion. Hope you keep plugging in your 2 cents.

Now I have a question for those that understand the bassist's role. For a good swing,does the bassist play On-The-Beat, Behind-the-beat, Ahead-of-the-Beat?

Listening to recordings, I honestly cannot tell. I'm trying to improve the swing in my band and I'm looking for clues.

I think my bassist tends to push the beat. I think my drummer has no 2 & 4 feel so it sounds rigid. Also, the lack of bass legato affects my feel of swing.

Thoughts?

I play the beat. The bassists role is playing the beat - or keeping time if you may.

Check out Chuck Israels - and of course Bill Evans.

Now for a blast from my past.
In 1989 I was a live-in assistant to composer and jazz musician Lasse Färnlöf, the man many know from his composition Grandfathers Waltz. We played music, checked out the latest in music tech and worked through his compositions. He taught me a lot.
One day Lasse said: "we" have a gig this afternoon do you have any tunes?" "Sure I said."
That's King Eriks Blues.

It's Lasse on fluegelhorn, me on piano and sorry to say I've forgotten his name on bass.
Just listen to Lasse's soulful horn! Man I miss him.

Recording made on a mono cassette recorder.

Grandfathers Waltz:
https://www.box.com/s/ytixu75rnx2carrtg6ge

King Eriks Blues:
https://www.box.com/s/50kf2vac9ozbui25y990

Do I need to restructure the question? If the bass in ON-the-Beat, is the Drummer BEHIND the beat? If so the bassist will sound like he's pushing, right? So are both exactly on?

In which case, only the soloing instrument is dragging downbeats? (I'm being precise here since the upbeat is always a fixed point --swing eighth triplet).

If a drummer plays behind the beat he's dragging.

LOL - doesn't answer the question but I presume you mean both are on the beat at all times.

Jazzwee: Your questions are way above my pay grade, but I'll offer this. As my summer jazz camp, the drum instructor talked about how different drummers play on different parts of the beat. He compared Elvin Jones, who divided the beat into triplets and played on the third part of the beat, with Jimmy Cobb, who divided the beat into four parts and play on the fourth part. This is mostly heard on the ride cymbal. They also play right on the beat; he was talking about the not they hit after hitting two and four. He said Elvin's choice made for a more open sound. I may be butchering his point, but it's what I recall.

LOL - It's above mine too. But I'm beginning to appreciate the subtleties.

For example, I feel that my drummer's triplet eighth (ding-ding-A-ding) is in the wrong spot. That it needs to be dragged just a tad.

Absent that, I've just asked my drummer to play 2 & 4 (like Art Blakey) and play the rest open because I don't think he's feeling that swing eighth on the triplet. I realize now that EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE must feel that triplet eighth ( the -A- ) exactly and precisely or you don't swing. It has to be the exact position of the upbeat eighth.

Now I don't know about the rest of it. Obviously someone has to mark or imply the exact downbeat or you can't have an exact triplet.

Hey Chris that's great sounding stuff and to think that's 23 years ago. And it sounds like a cassette recording. LOL. Truly super compressed. No handy Zooms back then.

Thanks. Yeah, I've just found the cassette it's been in a basket on a shelf. It's interesting to listen to one's own playing from years back. And it was a couple of years before I quit playing.

thank you jazz wee ...

umm ... my 2 cents about in front of the beat, etc.

IF you're listening to recordings and you can't tell, that may indicate that right now it's not a concept to work with. having said that, if you practice with the metronome on 2 & 4 and if you're comfortable with it on those beats, then you can experiment and see what happens if try "rush" the metronome w/out losing your connection to it. that's in front of the beat. trying to lag way behind it is behind the beat. IF you can control that with the metronome you could probably begin to bring the concept to your band.

HOWEVER. and this where it gets verrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyy subjective ..... even really accomplished jazz musicians don't always agree on where the beat is and if it's being pushed or not. for example, i read an interview with ron carter recently and the interview said something about how tony williams (ron carter) played way in front of the beat. and ron carter told the interview, basically, that while he understood why he would say it, it nevertheless WASN'T correct! rc said that tc was simply anticipating 16ths notes which to him wasn't pushing the beat.

dexter gordon, among others is famous for playing behind the beat. maybe the king of behind the beat is the vocalist "little" jimmy scott.

another way to see these kinds of things is that older (extremely experienced) jazz musicians become very adaptable - they can play on or in front or behind as the situation requires.. younger (extremely talented) jazz musicians often push the beat relentlessly. and as they get more experienced they often then sit more on the beat. but these are generalizations. really first rate musicians are capable of treating time like a rubber band. literally!

in your band, if your bassist is pushing the beat, it may be because he knows (whether consciously or not) that your drummer has no 2 & 4 feel (as you say). so your bass player may be trying to compensate. that's also a pretty common scenario. if the bass player is strong enough it's a scenario that can pretty much work. but that's a big hypothetical if!

you might try at a rehearsal getting everyone to play with a metronome on two and four and also on all four beats. a lot of musicians don't think that's helpful AT ALL, so that's something to consider. all of musicians, particularly in beginning stages, can't keep that steady sense of time that a metronome requires. but metronomic time isn't always what you want ....

you could try playing along with whatever recording it is that hits the style that you'd like to be playing in. that can get interesting because, if you play along with, say miles davis at the black hawk, you'll find that that band rushes like crazy! on that recording at least.

same with bill evans and his trio once the tempos start to move past medium fast. bill tended to rush rush rush! in his trios. with miles davis and others where he was a sideman, you don't hear that at all from him.

. ... another strategy is to try to get everyone to focus on the kind of groove they want and they like. discuss it, talk about it ... see who can clearly demonstrate it.

so, hope this is helpful ... oh! and one more strategy. if everyone in the bands tries to play softer that'll automatically make it easier for them to hear everyone else in the band. when everyone's really listening TOGETHER to EACH OTHER that's when the magic starts. ... the magic stops when everyone's listening in their head to what they think it should sound like without listening to each other in the band. and of course, there's everything in between ....

again, hope this helps ...