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Can you guys keep the noise down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wayne, were any of those notes helpful for Op. 85/2?

Are you aware in that in 2/2 time, the are two beats in each bar and the first one is accented (louder) than the other? In 3/4 time the first crotchet carries the main accent and the other two are weak. In 4/4 time the first beat carries the strong accent, the third a medium accent and the second and fourth have weak accents. All notes occuring between beats, i.e the second of quaver pairs, the last three of groups of four semi's etc, are unaccented.

This piece is in 12/8 time but the accents are the same as for 4/4 time.

I get confused by your measure numbering, if you could number it on the score for me and send it me, then that would be a great help I'd then beable to loop the sections you suggested, I understood the M1-M4 one, and did that.

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNIVT9v6hf0

Here you go Wayne ...

Mendelssohn OP 85 No. 2 - Numbered

Yes, will try to keep the racket down. Just in case though, I have already priced out Heavy Duty ear muffs. As it turns out I can get a discount if I buy in bulk, so just advise if you want in.

thank you Greener

You're Welcome

Mendelssohn, 85/2

The Ditson Edition gives Part I, Antedcedent phrase beginning on the up-beat before bar 1. It extends to midway through bar 4. There begins the Consequent phrase for which there's an extension beginning halfway through M8. Part 1 ends midawy through M10.


Keep practising M1-4, Part I, Antecedent phrase, bringing out the melody. In your video, Wayne, you're going about twice the speed I would but you're not bringing out the melody. All your notes have about the same volume.

This piece is in cut time, 2/2, so I would set your metronome for 4/4, at 66-72 bpm and play the quavers on each tick. Play just the melody, on its own, at about forte using fingers 4 & 5. Give the dotted crotchets just a little more emphasis than the quavers.

When the notes are singing add the LH at about mF. When the two hands are working and the melody is dominating add the two harmony notes at about Piano.

You've to carry a legato line in fingers 4 & 5 and turn 5 under. You need to learn this slowly with the right dynamics. Once the correct notes, dynamics and articulation are in your fingers and your memory you'll start shifting to automatic mode and you can let the speed rise, which it will.

When this is easy with the melody rising above the accompaniment you can limit yourself to a just two or three reps a day while you start on the Consequent phrase. Start without the extension and add it on when you're comfortable with this stretch. You should keep these two phrases separate until you've doubled the speed - but don't try to double your speed. Wait for it to start coming up naturally as you transition from thinking about the notes to playing them automatically.

Spend about a fortnight on Part I alone then restrict it to a couple of slow plays each day while you work on Part II.

Tackle Part II the same way; just the melody first, then add the bass, then the accompaniment. Again, keep the Antecdent phrase and Consequent phrases separate until well established and then add the repeat of the Consequent phrase.

Spend two or three weeks on Part II. This is the hardest part of the piece. The rest either repeats this or changes a few of the chords a little (and I doubt anyone would notice if you repeated them exactly the same for the recital).

Part III is the Antecedent phrase, Consequent phrase, Sequential repeat of the Consequent phrase, Repeat of preceeding phrase and the four bars of evaded cadence. You shouldn't need two full weeks on this as much of it is hardly different from the forst two parts.

The last four bars are the coda and can be tackled separately. They shouldn't need a week.

This should see you midway through March playing the three parts separately. You might be around 72 bpm for crotchets by this time and that's a perfectly respectable tempo for this piece. Keep the parts separate while your tempo rises and join the parts about one week before you start recording, whichever is sooner. If you keep each phrase separate your tempo will rise quicker.

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My earlier notes:

Keep practising the Antecdent phrase, M1-4, bringing out the melody, now that you have it. The speed at which you do this is completely unimportant. Once you have it the speed will come faster than you might expect. But it's important that you wait for it to come from frequent repetitions at a manageable speed and not trying to force it.

Bear in mind throughout that this is a song without words - and therefore it is meaningless with the melody line. Practise playing those two accompanying notes whisper quiet while you "shape" the phrase. This is 2/2 so the first note takes the strong accent, the fifth note of the bar takes a weak accent. The other three notes in each half measure are without accent but the melody, and bass, are louder than the two harmony notes.

It would be rather basic to make each melody note louder the higher it is on the staff - but it would still work. This can continue up through each climax except the actual climax notes marked with an accent or sF (the first notes in M33 (the sequential repeat of the Consequent phrase in Part III), M34, M37 (the repeat of the preceeding phrase in Part III) and, in the bass, M38 and 39. The second climax at M37 is part of the climbdown for me, so slightly less than M33.

Leave M5-8 (Part I, Consequent phrase) until M1-4 is flowing. Then do these three sections, each in isolation M1-4, M5-8, M8-10 (Part I, Consequent Phrase, Extension) until they're easy at a steady tempo, around 44-48 bpm (two beats per bar) then join them together.

M10-22 (Part II) I would practise on different days because of the change in the accompaniment to descending notes instead of rising. Stick with M10-14 (Part II, Antecedent phrase) as one unit for a few repetitions. Include the Upper B in RH and the lower D# in LH of M14.

Start with those two notes for the next section, M14 to the first beat of M17.

Keep M17-18 (the cadence evaded and the chords in the measure before it) isolated until it's well absorbed, fluent and memorised (if you memorise your pieces).

Only when these three parts are flowing would I learn M18-22 (repeat of Consequent phrase) and join all four parts together, M10-22 (part II).

M26-34 (Part III, Consequent phrase and repeat of it) will be easy once you've got those first two sections up to half tempo. Likewise the finish, M34-41 (cadence evaded before the coda).

If you've got M1-22 almost memorised already you're not going to have problem with this, Wayne, by the time the recital comes. M14-18/M30-34 is about as hard as this piece gets.

I see you have measure numbers now, too!

I might like in on those ear muffs, Jeff. There's a guy in a Toronto condo keeps me awake all night...

I'm going to steal some of these ideas for my Song Without Words -- the part about just melody singing, and then melody plus LH, and finally all bits. And although I still don't understand really why, I'm going to force myself as advised to only do one section for a while, and then another section only after I've made strong progres at the first section. This is for bringing out the voicing and the melody. And not only that, I'm going to start in the middle with the section that is hardest for me to remember (and also includes the section that I feel is the hardest for me to voice).

I feel content with the tempo I've achieved so far (if I use the score) although if a further rise in tempo occurs I won't mind exploring a slightly faster adagio vs. my current very adagio, really lento adagio. So this is good because it means I can observe the part of Richard's advice about not worrying about the tempo and practicing slow: and actually not worry about the tempo, instead of pretending I'm not worrying about the tempo.

My memorization goes really slowly. It took me about a month to memorize my (one page) Mendelssohn, and that only happened because I was really focusing on it. I've been working on two other pieces since the start of December and I'm only partway through each of them. One is a 32-bar or so Bach Little Prelude, and I'm half-way through it (working backwards), and the other is a Clementi Sonatina, and I've only just completed through the Development (working forwards).

All of these I can play about 50% to 2x faster using the score than I can when playing from pure memory alone, which makes me wonder if there's something wrong with my memorization. Do I misunderstand what memorization is, or what really memorizing a piece means, or something?

Thank you Richard for continually sharing these ideas about how to practice and learn.

Question on memorization:

Richard, you talk about memorizing little bits, and then another little bit, and so on, and then starting over, working on joining the bits. E.g. a pass memorizing 2 bars at a time, and then a pass memorizing 4 bars at a time, and then a pass memorizing 8 bars at a time.

Do you let yourself forget the earlier 2-bar bits, and relearn them when you get back to them in the 4-bar pass? Or do you work on remembering all the 2-bar bits, so that in the 4-bar pass you're just working on joining them together, rather than also having to re-memorize them?

I haven't been doing it in building bits like that anyway, I've been doing it by accumulating measures. So in the Bach Little Prelude, I memorized the last measure, and then memorized the next-to-last measure, but continued practicing the last measure too, because I didn't want to forget it. And then memorized the third measure from the end, but didn't let up on the last two measures because I'm afraid if I don't keep repeating them I'll forget them.

So even if I were strictly doing the 2-bars all through, then 4-bars all through, etc. I would feel like I needed to keep practicing and reviewing all the 2-bar bits that I had achieved so far, because otherwise I'll forget the first ones and when I get to the 4-bar stage I'll have to re-learn them.

Or is it supposed to be like that? Learn it enough to last for a while, but perhaps forget it after a while, and then re-learn it again at the 4-bar pass, and so on?

Why do so many people seem to be able to memorize so easily? If the choice facing me were "learn to read music or memorize all your music", I would be all over "learn to read music" because memorization has always in the past been such torture to me. But so many people here at PW choose the other way: they'd much rather memorize than read. Did I miss some essential piece of musical development somewhere that would make memorization easier?

Wow! I've got heaps to learn and do. Thanx so much Richard, I really appreciate all this help I'll keep you all posted on my progress

No, I wasn't aware of this at all. This is all brand new to me. Aware of it now though. Thanks

Sticking to short sections means your short term memory is more likely to hold the whole section and repetition speeds up the memorisation in both the procedural memory (finger memory) and the cognisant memory.

Building tempo happens much quicker by working on short sections. On longer sections you've typically forgotten the first bars by the time you get to the end and you have to start afresh with each repetition and so you need more repetitions to reach your "seven".

More than three repetitions of the whole piece is likely to introduce errors from tiredness where seven reps of each short section may not.
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Memorisation is slow and you have to re-memorise each day, though it gets quicker each time and lasts longer, until eventually you remember it for 24 hours and you can effectively maintain it with only a couple of repetitions each day.

There will be bad days where you just can't recall it. Here's where the score really speeds you up but you get to rely on cues. Be patient, think through the music in your head (audiation) and wait for it to come back to you. Think before you try again. Trust that it's there and just needs a little extra time. Eventually you build very strong pathways for this recall facility. This is when you get to really know it. This is cognisant memory and this is virtually bullet-proof - it nods to stage-fright but, once started, it does not bow in performance or wince at errors.

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Memorising comes easier to some than others and at different times of the day and times of life. Memorising in youth is easier than in old age. Memorising in the morning is easier than in the evening.

Once I've repeated a passage seven times from memory I know I know it. The longer I leave it the more the memory fades but I'll never truly forget it. If it's a few weeks before I start the second pass I may still be able to memorise 4 bars in the same time as I took to learn 2 before and if not I'll do another two bar pass.

I typically work on five or six pieces a day for a week (mon-fri). After a week I change the group to prevent boredom and allow assimilation. I may have worked on a few measure to a couple of pages and I'll refresh them briefly at weekends. I have four to six groups that I cycle through so I have 20-30 current pieces in varying stages of completion. So it could be a few weeks before I return to a piece and I find I can still memorise it quicker than the previous time but each time strengthens the memory further.

I'm relying on planning and past performance to be ready for the Mendelssohn Recital at the end of March. If I fall behind schedule I can squeeze other pieces to allow catch-up or work weekends. Trusting the system avoids panic. My system makes it essential to keep a journal and this helps planning. But it saves me from having to do these pieces every day for three months (gasp!).

It takes a long time on the calendar to learn a piece, but re-memorising keeps the piece fresh and exciting and the assimilation time has improved my technique. I learn a piece in less time counting actual seat time than a continuous effort but more time on the calendar.

However I learn more pieces in a year, I don't get bored with them and I remember them for...well, forever I suppose. As you know, I've kept nearly eighty pieces alive during my fifteen year hiatus and I'm expecting to bust a hundred this year.


Thanks, but it's just payback for all the good things I've gained from this forum.

Jeff, we covered this five pages ago!

Just kidding!

Here's a handy link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature

I need this.

Question: I am interested in lining up Bach-Hess Cantata No. 147 as my next piece to work on. But, the only scores I have been able to find on it are mult-part and I'm not even sure what pertains to me. Any idea where I can find just the piano (harpsichord) score?

BTW, how many Bach's were there? Bach-Bach, Bach-Hess, Bach-Magdalena. Did he have 10 kids ?

Bach had many children. Some died.

Anna Magdalena was his second wife. Carl Philip Emmanuel was his most gifted son and dominated the period between his father and the emergence of Haydn and Mozart.

Wilhelm Friedmann was his next most gifted and Johann Christian was the first person to play the piano in public in London courtesy of the impresario Salomon.

All the other Bach's are musically insignificant.

The Bach-Hess cantata is the cantata 147 adapted by Dame Myra Hess who only died in 1965 so it will still be in copyright and shouldn't be freely available over the 'net.

Am I suppose to be looping each of these sections? If so I'm struggling to "loop" the others. eg M10-14