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#1689342 - 06/02/11 03:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
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After more thought I guess it's possible. C dim would have a Gb and might also have an added major 7th. C, Eb, Gb, B.
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#1689350 - 06/02/11 03:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
You can find all sorts of corner cases if there's a key change in the measure, or if the music is poorly notated.

I think my initial point was picked on for accuracy, but hopefully you understand what I meant.

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#1689360 - 06/02/11 03:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Yup - let's move on.

Now for someone like you, Knotty, that's just trying to improve sight reading, where is the delay coming from, the Deciphering of the note or the finger going to the note?

I'm just wondering if my time away from the piano can be used for building up the deciphering speed, particulary of chord shapes.

When I read my kid's beginner piano books, it is clear that they only want you to look at the starting note, and everything else is based on interval moves (without thinking of the notes). If this is the case, then trying to improve my deciphering doesn't do anything.
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#1689374 - 06/02/11 04:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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>> Now for someone like you, Knotty, that's just trying to improve sight reading, where is the delay coming from, the Deciphering of the note or the finger going to the note?

I don't know if there is a delay. Nothing in music comes fast, you know that. I think I'm making great progress so I'm happy to recommend it. In addition, I'm enjoying it.

But the difficulty are those I stated above. When RH drives, then LH drives, I get confused. See what I mean, sometimes you'll have a line in the RH, that stops, and then you need to tell your head that the line you are now reading is in the LH, and the RH is playing support roles.
Also, reading 2 staves is always a source of confusion. Especially when the motion inverts.
Rhythms can be tricky.

And the delay comes from the fact that this method is intended to be slow. 1 4 measure tune per day.

Seems to me like you already know all the notes, so that really great. I'm sure rhythms are also easy. You just need to train yourself to follow the notes as you read, and read ahead.

I'll send you a couple of pages. You can decide for yourself.

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#1689455 - 06/02/11 07:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
check it:
http://www.box.net/shared/0as7g4hgbs

Is it readable?
Can you sight read the 1st piece, the first time through, at 60bpm or so?

If this is too easy, I have some harder ones.

If this is too hard, try book 2.



Edited by knotty (06/02/11 07:11 PM)

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#1689459 - 06/02/11 07:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Yes I can do this. Is this Book 1? At least my pattern recognition told me it was just a C triad in about a second. But I'll practice it anyway to get used to it.

I just need to know what Book to start at. I do have a problem looking at the bass clef at the same time.


Edited by jazzwee (06/02/11 07:20 PM)
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#1689480 - 06/02/11 07:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
this is the beginning of book 3.

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#1689488 - 06/02/11 07:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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How many times do you do each book? If you've sight read it once, then the next time it would be too easy to memorize? I have a natural habit of memorizing what I see (as I mentioned before).

BTW - my level would be above this book. This is simpler than what my kid is doing. I can sight read what my kid plays.

I was at a lesson with my teacher and I explained my sight reading problem. Then he tested me on playing various chords without looking at the keyboard. He said I had no problem with that. So maybe my issue is as simple as never moving my head or not freezing in fear.

Seriously, you cannot play a piece like Chopin's 10/1 if you cannot feel the keyboard. There's no time.

I do those Phone apps where it shows a note and you play it on the keyboard. I do well on those too. But I don't have to look away since the keyboard and note are on the same little screen.

I can read the melody of any Real Book leadsheet, though I memorize it.

What is wrong with me?!!! I conclude I have a psychological problem. smile I need a shrink to analyze.
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#1689656 - 06/03/11 12:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>How many times do you do each book?
once.

>>Then he tested me on playing various chords without looking at the keyboard.
Playing chord? Reading Chords. I have no doubt you can play chords. That's what we do. But how is it related to sight reading?

>>BTW - my level would be above this book. This is simpler than what my kid is doing. I can sight read what my kid plays.

Earlier you said:
>>The kid stuff IS designed for sight reading. In fact, at this level, it seems to be the main point of the books. It is easy for me to read them. But the reaction time is the issue.

That indicates to me that you cannot sight read those pieces. If you have a delay, or a reaction time, then it's deciphering, not sight reading.

So I assume you did that with the piece that says 5th day. You sat down, and played it through perfect the first time.
If there was no struggling, then you are above that level.

I can show you mid of book 3 or beginning of book 4 if you'd like.

>> What is wrong with me?!!! I conclude I have a psychological problem. smile I need a shrink to analyze.
You're just at a particular level like anyone else, but I'm not able to understand what that level is yet.
There is a point where you are no longer able to sight read a piece. And then there's a point right before where you can still sight read, keeping time, but making a few mistakes. That's your level right there.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you look at your hands, or what. What matters is whether you can play the piece the first time. If you have a good ear, you can read the piece ahead and hear it all in your head, therefore playing by ear. That counts, that's all good.

Can you play this through the first time:
http://site.musicbooksnow.com/musicsheets/simplyeeantv1/980854_1.jpg

More importantly, when you write an arrangement, can you play it 2 months later?
This is the part that frustrates me the most, and to me, that's where the rubber meets the road.

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#1689670 - 06/03/11 01:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty

>>Then he tested me on playing various chords without looking at the keyboard.
Playing chord? Reading Chords. I have no doubt you can play chords. That's what we do. But how is it related to sight reading?



Just to answer this, it means I don't need to look at my hands to play since I can play complex chords without looking.

The point is, I can read the notes (I can say them out loud), I can play without looking -- YET I cannot sight read. I freeze.

It's like parts of the elements of sight reading are in me but I'm missing something that I don't understand.
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#1689678 - 06/03/11 01:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> I'm missing something that I don't understand
practice

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#1689930 - 06/03/11 01:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
I did your exercise last night and found a weakness with looking at the bass clef at the same time. Other than that delay, this was a doable exercise. Am I allowed to try it again to build up speed?

Since I am not practiced in simultaneously reading the bass clef, I just spent a lot of time going through the Real Book melodies of tunes I don't know to see if I could read them. I guess if I just forced myself to never look away, it was doable.

Maybe this is not as bad as it seems. If I can sight read even just the head, then it would be major progress.
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#1689946 - 06/03/11 02:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Am I allowed to try it again to build up speed?
Yes. I gave myself the goal that I should be able to play them at 60bpm the first time around.
But then I come back the next day and speed it up. Not all in one day because it's too easy to memorize.

>> Maybe this is not as bad as it seems. If I can sight read even just the head, then it would be major progress.
Some melodies in the realbooks are really hard to read.

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#1689949 - 06/03/11 02:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Some melodies in the realbooks are really hard to read.


Which is why it's perfect. Look at Oleo alone; the rhythmic challenge of reading that.

So what book are you on now?

When I go on vacation, I figure a MIDI keyboard and the Realbooks should keep me occupied with sight reading.
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#1689968 - 06/03/11 03:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> So what book are you on now?
I'm still on book 3. I think 1 book is about 6 months or so. At least at my pace. Note that book 12, which is last, is very advanced. If I make it there, 4 or 5 years sounds reasonable.
I think you get the most out of it by doing it slowly, each day.

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#1689972 - 06/03/11 03:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
How many pages does it have? From what you posted, it would a comfortable starting point because it's so doable. Then I should probably get this book.
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#1689983 - 06/03/11 03:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
that's my sense also.

It's 35 pages or so.

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#1690220 - 06/04/11 12:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Hey Knotty, I sight read the whole Faber Level 1 book tonight. And pretty much at tempo. So maybe my purchase of the 4 Stars Book #3 may have been redundant?

I may not be as bad as I thought. The improvement may have snuck up on me...Maybe I should have ordered #4.
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#1690303 - 06/04/11 08:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
You'll find out soon enough. Book 3 gets tricky for folks like me, not used to playingreading 2 staves at a time.
However, it's not very advanced. Minimum chords, minimum hand movement. But it's because it's a the right level, and simple enough that I'm able to keep my eyes on the paper, not look at the hand, and make some decent progress.

It's key to find your level. I don't about know your teacher, but jazz teachers are usually not very experienced teaching reading, while classical teachers can tell you pretty quick what your sight reading level is. It's what they do.

I have book 4, if you want me to scan a few pages, let me know.




Edited by knotty (06/04/11 08:48 AM)

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#1690406 - 06/04/11 12:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


What is wrong with me?!!! I conclude I have a psychological problem. smile I need a shrink to analyze.



I could have told you that! thumb

All I can say jazzwee is that if you want to play music while reading it, then that is what you must practice. Start at whatever level is comfortable and don't expect progress to be quick.

Don't be distracted by the fact that you are good at other things. If you started piano just now from scratch, and practised, you would get better.
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#1692957 - 06/09/11 01:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Hey Knotty, I went with 4 Stars Book 4 and I just received it. It looks fine. I can still read it (though not fast). This was marked 'Early Intermediate'. It's still simple, the only difference are the keys (this one starts in the Key of D and F in the first couple of pages.

Crossing my fingers here but it looks like I was on the verge of figuring it out and I may have reached a milestone here.

TLT - there is no doubt I know what I am not good at smile I've been embarrassed more than a few times when I freeze in front of my teacher. But it seems like reading away from the piano has helped (I've been doing that in the last few months).
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#1692960 - 06/09/11 01:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Perhaps any of you might be interested in working on 'Naima'?

Such a beautiful tune. Harder than I thought.

I'm playing this at a gig soon so I'm cramming. I know I'm taking a risk but I'm playing 10 new tunes at my next gig.
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#1693140 - 06/09/11 06:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
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Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Naima is fine with me . . . love the tune.
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#1693149 - 06/09/11 07:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
adamkaz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 9
OT: I just joined a few days ago because I am in the buying process... haven't owned a piano for 7 years. I just saw this forum/thread and am excited! Looks like there is great support not only for buying but for learning and improving. smile

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#1693217 - 06/09/11 09:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Absolutely adamkaz! Welcome, get yourself a recording device and hop in.
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#1693460 - 06/10/11 09:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Naima is a cool tune. I was just messing around with it a little. I'll see what I can do. I haven't got all set up yet for recording... just got moved to Chicago area.

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#1693664 - 06/10/11 06:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7110
Loc: So. California
Scott, that sounds quite major. That's like starting from scratch with students and such. Let us know how you're getting along.

I've played Naima more as a solo piano piece and it sounds great for that. But to do it combo style and double-timing the solo was harder than I thought. After awhile I was repeating ideas...

All non-functional harmony.
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#1693805 - 06/11/11 02:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I've played Naima more as a solo piano piece and it sounds great for that. But to do it combo style and double-timing the solo was harder than I thought. After awhile I was repeating ideas...

All non-functional harmony.


I still hate the term 'non-functional' harmony, so I'll just pretend that no one is saying it anymore. smile

In any case, I'm wondering about some typos in the Real Book Hal Leonard version for Naima. I've got the original real book and the versions are virtually identical except for an A or Ab chord in the 4th bar. Both sound good with the right voicing, but I'm thinking the chord should be Ab, given the same progression later on has Ab.

Anyone know for sure?
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#1693828 - 06/11/11 05:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ywkpVJ624

If in doubt go to the source.
Trane's solo here is unbelievable, such intensity.
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#1693840 - 06/11/11 07:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1371
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
. . . . but I'm thinking the chord should be Ab, given the same progression later on has Ab. Anyone know for sure?

Ab it is.
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