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#1999326 - 12/14/12 09:25 AM X for the note on F clef
davidw99 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 28
Loc: Boston
Hello all,

I learning some Vince Guaraldi music and some of the notes on (under) the F clef have an X instead of a regular note. What does this mean?

Thanks
_________________________
Dave

Born again piano player.

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#1999333 - 12/14/12 09:40 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
"Ghosted notes".

If these are as I am envisioning them, in jazz notation these "X" notes represent "ghosts" of "throw aways".

How to describe to a novice? They are never of any significant duration, and typically found as the lower "notes" in a turn-around pattern. These notes are more "implied" than fully sounded. On the keyboard, they may, or may not, be simply touched lightly. On horns they are executed with a sort of muffled sound that approximates the pitch indicated. For instance, say we have swing eight notes walking up the scale in C major:

C-A-C-E-D-B-D-F-E-C-E-G-F (sustained)

(The bold notes are accented.) The lowest note in each group of four could be a "throw away". The "X" representing the actual note will appear on the line or space where the note would be if fully sounded. Below I have enclosed the ghosts in parenthesis:

C-(A)-C-E-D-(B)-D-F-E-(C)-E-G-F (sustained)

In the horns, such a notation can also appear at the very top of the register, where it typically means "play as high as possible", usually preceeded by a scoop, or gliss.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2000931 - 12/17/12 11:23 PM X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
So - - - - - David - - - - - are you still with us here?
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2001405 - 12/18/12 09:29 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
Either your explanation made perfect sense to him and he is off happily playing away, or he was as baffled by this as I was and is laying low hoping that someone else will add to the thread. I doubt that I will ever play well enough to need to understand this, but still find it fascinating.

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#2001432 - 12/18/12 10:32 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
Here is a tutorial illustrating these ghosted notes. Ed, you really should embrace the Internet as a tool where applicable. wink
tutorial - ghosted notes
Here's one on violin
Grapelli's ghost notes
I can't picture this effect on piano. (?)


Edited by keystring (12/18/12 10:34 PM)

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#2001879 - 12/19/12 08:08 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 339
Loc: San Diego, CA
Thanks. The ghost note concept is starting to materialize for me!

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#2002112 - 12/20/12 11:43 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
For piano music, I've seen this used for clapping / percussion / unpitched tones / spoken (not sung) words.
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#2002898 - 12/22/12 12:02 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: keystring
Here is a tutorial illustrating these ghosted notes. Ed, you really should embrace the Internet as a tool where applicable . . . . . I can't picture this effect on piano. (?)

Hey KeyString,

As you know, I did not need to look anything up. It is not necessary when one already knows. Equally, I am uncertain that having amatuers explain stuff on videos that they, themselves, barely understand, is anything to embrace.

When I "ghost" notes on the piano, I barely surpress that key. If I had excellent control, I would make each one barely sound, and then only for an instant. In real life, because of my lack of technique, it is "hit-and-miss".

Did you try my example? Have you further questions from having tried it?

Ed

{{ADDITIONAL THOUGHT}} These ghosts probably will not work as well on an electronic.



Edited by LoPresti (12/22/12 12:20 AM)
Edit Reason: Additional
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#2002902 - 12/22/12 12:15 AM X for the note on F clef [Re: SoundThumb]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: SoundThumb
Either your explanation made perfect sense to him and he is off happily playing away, or he was as baffled by this as I was and is laying low hoping that someone else will add to the thread. I doubt that I will ever play well enough to need to understand this, but still find it fascinating.

Here is an interesting, although quite advanced, communication technique that I employ whenever I find myself in the situation that you discribe: I write something like, "What do you mean?"; or, "Would you explain further?"; or "Will you go into more detail on this?"

I know that the technique is radical in concept, and excessively difficult to apply, but I have had astonishing results with it.

- - - Oh, DAVID - - - (I hope he is OK.)
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2002903 - 12/22/12 12:17 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
.


Edited by keystring (12/22/12 01:38 AM)

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#2002908 - 12/22/12 12:33 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: LoPresti]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
"Ghosted notes".

If these are as I am envisioning them, in jazz notation these "X" notes represent "ghosts" of "throw aways".

How to describe to a novice?

Yup - difficult to execute consistently, and even more difficult to explain. I believe that trying my little example would at least have engendered more (pointed) questions. (Perhaps not . . .)

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2003028 - 12/22/12 10:22 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
malkin Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2521
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Wikipedia does a pretty good job of explaining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_note
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#2003097 - 12/22/12 01:41 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
Ed, when we teach in person or even just explain things, we can demonstrate what we mean. In this medium we can't. I found two on-line demonstrations apparently teaching what you were talking about so that we had sound. You said that you don't need them because you know it already. But the point is that you were teaching it, and we don't know it and need something. So the question to you is whether these two demos 1) illustrate to some measure what you were talking about, 2) correctly enough. If yes to both questions, then we know that we can get an idea about it from those demos. So?

The question thus becomes: "Is this what you mean?"

You wrote:
Quote:
... having amateurs explain stuff on videos that they, themselves, barely understand ....

Are you saying that without watching the videos, but assuming that these people are amateurs? Or after watching the videos, and deciding that their demonstrations are amateurish and incorrect? Both individuals are teachers, one using his violin student to demonstrate, so I assumed that there was a level of professionalism.

If their demonstrations are incorrect, I'd be interested in knowing in what capacity they are correct. I had gotten an idea from the demos which made sense to me, and if those demos are wrong, I'd like to know it. Thanks in advance.

No, I haven't tried it yet because
a) I was waiting for confirmation that it was understood correctly (the demo)
b) I am working on basic dynamics on piano, am working on playing individually fingered notes without cramping my hand, and have not been able to figure out how to produce this on piano. Do you have an idea on the technical side on piano? In fact, do you know of music where this is used on piano, so that maybe we can find demos and borrow from pianists by watching what they do to produce it?


Edited by keystring (12/22/12 01:45 PM)

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#2003101 - 12/22/12 01:48 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
I will add an extra thought about piano. On acoustic pianos, it is possible to send the hammer flying toward the string with the finger only going partly down - I think 50% of the distance or less. On most digital pianos (mine for example), the system does not sense key descent until the key is almost near the bottom. We cannot do dynamic shading as much as on an acoustic, especially when playing fast notes. To play rapidly, 3 notes louder and one suddenly softer, seems technically difficult. How is it done? IS it done?


Edited by keystring (12/22/12 01:48 PM)

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#2003117 - 12/22/12 02:16 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: keystring]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
absolutely!

In jazz, post Parker, and including him, it's a commonplace.

I picked out the first K. Jarrett track I stumbled on and there it was in the first few seconds. On "If I were a bell" the Ab is ghosted almost to disappearance.

Maybe it's a commonplace also pre-bebop (I haven't checked) but in my meagre experience of classical piano, it's rare. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Incidentally, as already pointed out, the 'X' is all over drum parts and I've used it a lot as a shorthand for a repeated event where only the time values change (e.g. for a repeated chord, I write only the tails terminating in an X for all the repeats after the first chord which would be written in proper notation).


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#2003128 - 12/22/12 02:55 PM X for the note on F clef [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[{{ADDITIONAL THOUGHT}} These ghosts probably will not work as well on an electronic.


Originally Posted By: keystring
On acoustic pianos, it is possible to send the hammer flying toward the string with the finger only going partly down - I think 50% of the distance or less. On most digital pianos (mine for example), the system does not sense key descent until the key is almost near the bottom. We cannot do dynamic shading as much as on an acoustic, especially when playing fast notes.


I was right! There IS an echo in this Forum.

Because it is almost Christmas . . . . . I have a public confession to make: The “Ed” with which I frequently close many of my posts, not only is short for “Eduardo”, but it is also a mnemonic for “Ed’s Discography”. And, because of the season, and highly inspired by the topic of this thread, here is the first installment of ED -- The Alternate Meaning .

I know that someone is currently studying Vince Guaraldi. His playing offers literally thousands of examples of “ghosted” notes. So, I dug out a couple of my old LPs , both from the Fantasy label. (Both have been re-released on a current Concord CD called the “The Very Best of Vince Guaraldi.)

Fantasy LP # 3257 from the early 1960s – TREAT STREET – The Guaraldi original offers excellent (and slower) examples of the “implied but not sounded ghosts” starting at measure #13 (at the STOP Tempo.):

C - C - C - G - A - (G) - C - C - C - G - A - (G) - C - C - C - G - A - G - C etc
Again, the bolded notes are accented, and the parenthecised notes ( () ) are ghosts.

This is characteristic of California style funk.

In the true spirit of the holiday, another Guaraldi original CHRISTMAS IS COMING (Fantasy PL # 8431), features the other type of ghosted notes as soon as the Bossa Nova ends, and the swing section begins. This is not as slow, and perhaps therefore more difficult to pick out when one is not certain for what one is listening.

I regret that you did not try my example. I know you are injured, but we are discussing 5 or 10 melody notes, not a sonata.

Anyway, listen and enjoy.

Has ANYONE seen David? He could be wandering around the Forums and starting another PADS epidemic!
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2003142 - 12/22/12 03:29 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: LoPresti]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1243
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

C - C - C - G - A - (G) - C - C - C - G - A - (G) - C - C - C - G - A - G - C etc
Again, the bolded notes are accented, and the parenthecised notes ( () ) are ghosts.


If the version you're referring to is in any way similar to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfF2N9PHeYA

then your representation above is faulty. Your first bracketed '(G)' is in fact a pair of LH notes [G,E] neither of which are ghosted. Your second alleged '(G)' is once again a pair of LH notes, this time, [E,F]. And again, neither of these are ghosted.

But perhaps the version you're listening to is different?


Originally Posted By: LoPresti


This is characteristic of California style funk.




as much to do with funk as the price of potatoes in China.

I'm inclined to blame wikipedia.

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#2003305 - 12/23/12 01:03 AM X for the note on F clef [Re: dire tonic]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Unfortunately, Dire, the link you posted is unavailable in the USA, so I can not confirm that you have the correct version. Actually, that is the reason for my citing the exact recording - so there would be no confusion.

The version I am quoting has lower register piano and upright bass playing through the last beat of those measures also, but the right hand melody is ghosted on the final eighth of the measure.
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2003313 - 12/23/12 02:15 AM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

I regret that you did not try my example.

I did not try your example because I did not understand your example. I linked to two tutorials to see if this was what you meant. The second time (today) I asked if that is what you meant - is it?

Meanwhile, you referred to amateurs. Again, are the people making those tutorials amateurs?

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#2003737 - 12/24/12 01:40 AM X for the note on F clef [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Hi KeyString,

Sorry for the confusion. Going back to the very beginning of this thread, our PADS Dave asked about an “X” replacing the head of a note. As Dragon eventually mentioned, that symbol could have several meanings, depending upon the context. But since PADS Dave mentioned Guaraldi as composer/player, I took a 95% guess that he was questioning ghosted notes. Sadly, I guess we will never know for certain . . . . .

I do not know PADS Dave, but since he is working on Guaraldi, I made certain assumptions in my attempt to explain. As you know, there is a set of vocabulary that comes with this music. So, a turn-around pattern, swing eighth notes, and the concept of accented, should not be new terms to such a player. I was not trying to TEACH anything - I leave that to the teachers here. I was offering an answer; at most, a little explanation, with a simple example.

As with anything that you post, I have a look at the material you link-in. (This in spite of the fact that I dislike most of what I find on YouTube, but you already know that, too.) I am uncertain just why confirmation of that fact is so very important to you, but here goes:
*The sax player - I am not a teacher, but if I were presenting on a blackboard, to a group, I would not need to continually refer to my notes, and correct my very simple written example. I would KNOW what I was presenting.
*The violinists - while the feeling of the ghosted notes is captured much better by this teacher, there is no hint of phrasing or other usage from the venerable Stéphane Grappelli. Monsieur Grappelli, like most other jazz musicians, certainly used these nuances; but not as demonstrated.
The sax player and the violin teacher might very well be professionals. Their presentations of the topic are amateurish.
Are these two tutorials attempting to demonstrate ghosted notes? Yes, they are.

A final note on teaching, explanations, and discovery. When someone asks a quasi-technical question, I prefer to give a hint that allows them to discover the answer themselves. When one has to work some to arrive at an answer, that is usually more meaningful, long term, than having everything laid out and readily available. “Easy come, easy go”.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2003994 - 12/24/12 02:24 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: LoPresti]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
In regards to this part:
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Equally, I am uncertain that having amateurs explain stuff on videos that they, themselves, barely understand, is anything to embrace.

I have had a chance to find out about one of the two people that you have designated "amateur". The violin demo is by Tim Kliphius
article on Tim Kliphius

"Part of his bio reads:
He first became known in 1999 when he joined Belgian gypsy guitarist, Fapy Lafertin. Kliphuis toured Europe with Lafertin's Quintet and featured on three cds before deciding on a solo career in 2004.
He was classically trained at the Amsterdam Conservatoire and started playing gypsy jazz in the style of jazz violinist Stéphane Grappelli. Other influences include saxophonist Stan Getz and guitarist Joe Pass. Since 2006, Kliphuis started combining classical, folk and world music with gypsy jazz, leading to performances outside the jazz world.
"

Here is Kliphius performing
Kliphius - Sweet Georgia Brown

I don't think he is any kind of total amateur. In regards to "Grapelli style", there is and will always be only one Grapelli heart

Stephane Grapelli - Stardust

My impression is that this man is not an amateur, and also that he probably does know what he is talking about. Here I'm at a disadvantage since the concept and style are new to me. But then, that's why I looked it up in the first place. When teaching concepts ones does not necessarily play musically. In fact, musical demonstrations might make it harder for basic concepts to be grasped, depending on what is being taught.

I posted those demos because I was not able to grasp your explanation as it stood by itself. You are right that we need to take off on things and explore them, but to do that we first need to have some essential idea of it. If Tim's idea is essentially correct, then I can use the combination of your write-up and his demo, for playing with it. There was nothing wrong with your write up. It's just that words alone when talking about music often can't give a good enough picture.

Quote:
A final note on teaching, explanations, and discovery. When someone asks a quasi-technical question, I prefer to give a hint that allows them to discover the answer themselves. When one has to work some to arrive at an answer, that is usually more meaningful, long term, than having everything laid out and readily available.

I agree that it is good to have people work things out for themselves. But there has to be enough to go on. I am no slouch as a student, and there wasn't enough for me. I didn't get it. That little extra, even if imperfect, gave me at least something sound-wise. If what either of us wrote was helpful to anyone then I'm glad. Meanwhile I hope you enjoy the Grapelli. smile


Edited by keystring (12/24/12 02:39 PM)

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#2004596 - 12/26/12 01:08 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Merry Christmas, KeyString!

Unfortunately, I am not getting Grappelli with your link:
Originally Posted By: keystring

The Ghosted Notes of Christmas Past!
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#2004641 - 12/26/12 02:38 PM Re: X for the note on F clef [Re: davidw99]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11658
Loc: Canada
How about now?
Grapelli - Stardust - really this time
And Merry Christmas!

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#2004671 - 12/26/12 04:23 PM X for the note on F clef [Re: keystring]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
This time, YES. And absolutely beautiful!
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